Iraq - what now?

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by plan_D

Chris, you workin' on your Hawks in the civvie street now? Do I still get a ride in one?

Not yet, Im waiting for a position to open up. They have all my paper work and it is being processed. The guy sent me another email today saying he had a position in November probably for me.

Cant wait, I miss my baby!

[mkloby]

[quote=plan_D;194941]The British government doesn't need to invest in Harriers, it needs to deploy more of them. More importantly the British forces require transport helicopters, we need to buy and deploy many more Chinooks.QUOTE]

As for acquiring more harriers - it probably ain't gonna happen. The JSF is coming online soon, so they're probably like us - they're not going to spend anything on the harrier. Are helos operated by the Royal Army? Here in the US the Marines have many squadrons of helos (UH-1N, AH-1W, CH-46E, CH-53D/E) that always deploy with our forces as part of a Marine Expeditionary Force. How do British forces deploy and why are they short of helicopter support?

[plan_D]

Great Britain has a supply of Harriers, but the government is not spending money on deploying these machines. They don't need to acquire them.

On your second comment, there's no such thing as the "Royal Army" - the Army was a parliamentarian creation after the victory in the English Civil War. "RA" would refer to the Royal Artillery. The British Army is just that, the British Army. If that sounded like I was talking down to you, I wasn't. A lot of people make the same mistake you have.

The British Army has it's own helicopters, but the largest is the Lynx. All other machines (even the Harriers on aircraft carriers) are RAF. The Chinook is RAF despite British media refering to it as an army helicopter. The reason there's a shortage of helicopter support is simple, the British government is not spending enough on acquiring them and it's not deploying all of what it has to the areas.

[mkloby]

Originally Posted by plan_D

Great Britain has a supply of Harriers, but the government is not spending money on deploying these machines. They don't need to acquire them.

On your second comment, there's no such thing as the "Royal Army" - the Army was a parliamentarian creation after the victory in the English Civil War. "RA" would refer to the Royal Artillery. The British Army is just that, the British Army. If that sounded like I was talking down to you, I wasn't. A lot of people make the same mistake you have.

The British Army has it's own helicopters, but the largest is the Lynx. All other machines (even the Harriers on aircraft carriers) are RAF. The Chinook is RAF despite British media refering to it as an army helicopter. The reason there's a shortage of helicopter support is simple, the British government is not spending enough on acquiring them and it's not deploying all of what it has to the areas.

Hey thanks for letting me know. I wasn't sure if it was called royal army - kinda thought i hadn't heard that term used, but figured if you had the royal navy, air force, and marines, i guessed you had the royal army too. Oh well. Isn't there pressure to deploy these machines if you have them? That's like us deploying marines w/o any air support squadrons. It's assinine. The royal navy doesn't operate harriers? Your military seems to have quite a beaurocratic tangle involving it's air assets. Doesn't seem like a good system for combat - and based on the problems that you are stating the mil is having, seems to be somewhat accurate.

With expenditures of 64 bil at about 2.7% of Gross domestic product, it doesn't seem that funding is going to rise much, unless your going to operate like us at over 4%. Again, is the military itself raising hell over it's lack of air support?

[Harvard]

The problem in Iraq as I see it, is a military that is run by political correctness from Washington. I saw a video of a bunch of dirt bag Iraqi looters doing their deed, and U.S. military soldiers just standing there.

Why wasn't our U.S. military using tear gas, rubber bullets, etc. Why didn't they shoot one looter as an example? Why aren't arrest sweeps being done neighborhood by neighborhood to purge the country of criminals? Right now Iraq needs a large police force to secure everything. Why isn't the U.S. military being trained to adapt to the mission at hand?

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Harvard

The problem in Iraq as I see it, is a military that is run by political correctness from Washington.

That I agree with. As for below...

Originally Posted by Harvard

I saw a video of a bunch of dirt bag Iraqi looters doing their deed, and U.S. military soldiers just standing there.

Because we follow orders and were told not to.

Originally Posted by Harvard

Why wasn't our U.S. military using tear gas, rubber bullets, etc.

Because that is not our job, we are not a police force. The army fights wars not criminals of such.

Originally Posted by Harvard

Why didn't they shoot one looter as an example?

Because the US Military does not do that. If we did such things we would be no better than the Gestapo, KGB and Saddams army. Think about it Harvard, please...

Originally Posted by Harvard

Why aren't arrest sweeps being done neighborhood by neighborhood to purge the country of criminals?

That is done on a day to day basis. Ive given aerial support to these cordon searches.

Originally Posted by Harvard

Right now Iraq needs a large police force to secure everything.

That is correct, but its hard when the Police force is corrupt and turns its blind eye to everything.

Originally Posted by Harvard

Why isn't the U.S. military being trained to adapt to the mission at hand?

We have been for years. It is pretty hard for someone sitting in the security of there home to make such allegations when they truely dont know how the army is adapting or what really is going on over there because they only see it on the news.

[Matt308]

UK also has 10 Chinooks procured from Boeing for SF. However, these 10 Chinooks (CH-47Fs I think) have been deemed unairworthy. Now that is a play on words, as they most certainly are in flyable condition. BRAND NEW in fact. However, it is my understanding that the mission package was improperly specified for SF operations and they thus sit grounded. After much hooplah, Boeing was found to have provided exactly what was asked for. UK is now in negotiations for additional funding for the upgrades, but the cost of the changes and certification of the configuration is being balked at by the bean counters.

Jeez. You think the troops in Afghanistan could use 10 SF Chinooks? You think they could use 10 standard configuration Chinooks!?

[Kiwikid]

I think it's actually irresponsible to make comments like he did - again not for his opinion, but he's there to lead his men, and his actions will not benefit them. Better to formulate a sound strategy with the other leaders, and keep comments like that away from the troops.

Nothing would be more destructive for maorale that a leader who doesn't point out the facts and lives in a castle of make believe.

[k9kiwi]

Case in point.

(Story from mates in the unit who were there.)

Dili airport, East Timor, around 2002

Air Security Squadron are providing base security, and have gone to considerable effort to set up a number of well Camouflaged Sangars (bunkers) as strongpoints.

A new Base CO arrives (Navy type), and wanders around for his inspection. He was not impressed with the "Grubby Sangars" and wanted improvements immediately.

The Base Warrant Officer is instructed to have all of the Sangars "Cleaned up and painted white."

Needless to say, everyones was gobsmacked by this lunacy. Especially the Air Sec guys standing there in camoflage DPM's.

Next day the Base CO watches a group of guys dressed from head to foot in white (borrowed painting overalls from the mechanics) marching out with their webbing and weapons.

"Whats going on with that lot" he was heard to ask the Base WO.

Apparently the response was to the effect of "That's Air Security blending in with their new Sangars Sir."

The Sangars went back to "Looking Grubby" PDQ.

[plan_D]

Those Chinooks cannot fly in bad weather or at night. Because the new glass cockpit is only half digital, and it's screwed the system up. The Dutch ordered the same machine but with complete upgrades (as Boeing were selling them) and they work fine. The British cut back on the purchase so Boeing removed some of the better equipment, now it's costing the British government more money to make something the same as what should have been in the first place.

British spending might be high but it's wasted on overly expensive CRAP like the Tornado.

[ndicki]

More evidence of underfunding prolonging the agony.

General says no early Afghan victory - Yahoo! News UK

[mkloby]

Originally Posted by plan_D

Those Chinooks cannot fly in bad weather or at night.

Just out of curiosity - how the hell can a Chinook not fly at night or bad weather?

[zuluecho]

Originally Posted by evangilder

You have to keep in mind that these people have lived for decades under a malevolent dictator. They have live in fear and oppression. Fo a lot of the Iraqi people, it is all they know. To suddenly introduce freedom and democracy is risky.

Evangilder.. I could not agree more. I have travelled through Afghanistan & Iraq a few times over the last 2 years. One thing that stands out is that once 'free' the people tend to head towards the fastest possible way to power. Other than what you guys have covered, here are a few other things to consider.

Take a small town just outside Baghdad. It might have a sunni majority. The sunni leader there decides that 20 of his clan will sign up for the police force. The shia clans gets wind of it and it sends a suicide bomber to deal with the threat. Such things have been happening all over Iraq. Sometimes its even sunni vs sunni. It is all about gaining power for 'their' neck of the woods.
Take for example today bomb attack on a wedding in the Shaab neighbourhood of Baghdad. Attacks against the Allies comes for a multitude of reasons.. ranging from hatred from what happened during the sanctions (one of the main recuriting slogans) to stuborness (with AF being used to capture/hold key locations) but i think this has been covered.

Afghanistan is a totally different place. I think.. and u can flame me as much as u like.. that it is a country that knows nothing but war being ruled by a white collar p****y who cannot ever get the respect of people who he is tryin to rule. The only way to hold and secure Afghanistan is someone with an iron fist with a track record. Only a very strong, brave and feirce caveman can lead his tribe.. and he should be ready to take on anyone who challenges him. For those of you who have been to Afghanistan, you know that Karzai has no control outside Kabul and that too is limited...

Recently i've noticed a trend in Afghanistan. People under taliban rule were oppressed.. but they were happy as it protected them from each other. After gaining their freedom they seem to go nuts doing things that they couldn't before. and after a few years realised that hang on.. we really don't want this. I'll try to give an example a reporter gave me in Kabul. Women before were always veiled.. after taliban were gone women started going out without veils and ended up being harassed and in cases raped... the under lying reason being.. a bunch of illiterate warriors who have never seen a woman before can't be taught to respect a woman overnight.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by plan_D

Those Chinooks cannot fly in bad weather or at night. Because the new glass cockpit is only half digital, and it's screwed the system up. The Dutch ordered the same machine but with complete upgrades (as Boeing were selling them) and they work fine. The British cut back on the purchase so Boeing removed some of the better equipment, now it's costing the British government more money to make something the same as what should have been in the first place.

British spending might be high but it's wasted on overly expensive CRAP like the Tornado.

That should not have much to do with it. We have Chinooks of similar configuration and they are fully IFR capable and can fly in bad weather and at night.

Infact in Iraq our Chinooks only fly at night.

Atleast in the US Army all Chinooks and Blackhawks are fully IFR and Night flight capable. If somethign on the aircraft is inop that will not allow it to fly in those conditions it is immediatly repaired because that is when we tactially fly most of our missions.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

A Chinook does not have to have a "Glass Cockpit" to be night and IFR capable.

What makes it able to fly in the bad weather is its NAV equipment and possibly Dopler Radar.

I know the Blackhawks that were in my unit had "conventional" cockpits not the glass cockpits and we were fully cable of doing that.