Aircraft of World War II - Warbird Forums

Israel Attacks Lebanon

Politics Discuss Israel Attacks Lebanon in the Current forums; Don't think you'll get much worth hearing from Kilachris, seems to be mired in moral relativism. Right and ...


Go Back   Aircraft of World War II - Warbird Forums > Current > Politics

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 07-21-2006, 10:59 AM   #121
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Phila, Pa
Posts: 2,613
Country:
Don't think you'll get much worth hearing from Kilachris, seems to be mired in moral relativism. Right and wrong are arbritrary to him and as such, any point can be countered by conditional indignation. Combine that with a culture of victimization and your talking to a brick wall. In his world, everyone else is the problem.

Unfortunately, he is symptomatic of a mentality that is pretty common. Rather than seeing the rights and RESPONSIBILITIES of the individual as being the most recent in a progression of individuals that needs to be fought for and protected, they see the rights as an entitlement and the responsibilities as somebody else's problem. They support only those parts of the Constitution they agree with and consider the entire process of government as inept to be replaced by something very altruistc, but not specific and definitely unworkable.
timshatz is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2006, 11:26 AM   #122
Senior Member
 
syscom3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 8,444
He acted like a drive-by-forum-poster.

makes his hit and moves on.

__________________
"Pilot to copilot..... what are those mountain goats doing up here in the clouds?"
syscom3 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2006, 12:10 PM   #123
Senior Member
 
Hunter368's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 2,205
Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by syscom3
He acted like a drive-by-forum-poster.

makes his hit and moves on.

100% agree
__________________


In the ocean of the military, reflective of all distinguished pilots, an honored Buddhist person.
Hunter368 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2006, 12:21 PM   #124
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 7
Country:
It too tiresome too argue with people who can only see things through fox news eyes.

Too tiresome to explain everything. IF your mind is set you will not ever see it my way.

I said i will not post again but this will be my last post.


I have read all of the posts in this thread.

One guy said he hopes all the arabs nations will unite and attack israel so she has a chance to whipe them all out! Many americans feel like this.


my main concern was the total lack of regard for innocent life.

Israel is a soveriegn nation. If terrorist kidnap a few soldiers there are more pro-active and better ways to respond. Leveling and entire city is not one.
Handle the matter like a state should handle the matter. Do not result into your own brand of terrorism.

Israel tactics are not even effective. It all points back to bad intelligence gathering. The govt doesnt know S**T so it blindly attack and bombs what it thinks are hezbollah strongholds.

Hezbollah is stronger than ever.

Its common military mantra to have people feel that you guys constantly defending us from evil.

That crap that happened in Vietnam certainly wasn't defending.
That also goes for Korea, Desert Storm, and the time Regan decided to invade a small island called grenada. (Trust me there are many more conflicts) The reason why i say this, none of those nations posed a direct imminent threat to the U.S.

Just more bad foreign policy. Trying to change govt or stop the spread of another type of govt.



I do respect the military, dont get me wrong, you guys do defend us.

But the bottom line. When you are sent into Iraq to find WMD that knowingly do not exist. You are a pawn. I know it hurts but it is the truth. You were sent based on a lie. The U.N and many intelligence agencies has warned us about invading Iraq. The U.N officials even strongly doubted the existence of WMD. over 2000 soldier dead based on bad intelligence.

please dont use the argument that we went in to save the iraqi people from there brutal dictator. That is just a side argument to counter that fact that George W. and the govt was wrong on this one.

If we are liberators we should of liberated the millions of people in Rwanda that have been exterminated.

That argument does not fly.






Never
kilahchris is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2006, 12:38 PM   #125
Senior Member
 
syscom3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 8,444
Quote:
Originally Posted by kilahchris
It too tiresome too argue with people who can only see things through fox news eyes.
What gives you the assumption we only watch Foxnews? Thats might pretentious of you to say that.

Quote:
One guy said he hopes all the arabs nations will unite and attack israel so she has a chance to whipe them all out! Many americans feel like this.
hehehehehhe, right.


Quote:
my main concern was the total lack of regard for innocent life.
Youre right. Hezbollah has shown it has a complete disregard for human life. By the way, if a civilian gives aid and comfort to a terrorist, is that civilan a legitimate target?

Quote:
Israel is a soveriegn nation. If terrorist kidnap a few soldiers there are more pro-active and better ways to respond. Leveling and entire city is not one.
Handle the matter like a state should handle the matter. Do not result into your own brand of terrorism.
One day you will understand that dilpomacy has failed. These are terrorists and only want one thing.

Quote:
Israel tactics are not even effective. It all points back to bad intelligence gathering. The govt doesnt know S**T so it blindly attack and bombs what it thinks are hezbollah strongholds.
Only time will tell if it is ineffective. And surely you understand that sometimes you just have to fightback if only to prove you are not a pushover. In the arab world, any sign of weakness is met with ever increasing force.

Quote:
Hezbollah is stronger than ever.
And why did they get stronger when the israelis left Lebanon years ago? You dont suppose they wer eplanning something nefarious dont you?

Quote:
Its common military mantra to have people feel that you guys constantly defending us from evil.
Looking back at the past 35 years of following events in the middle east, I can assure you that there are many fanatics in the arab world that are evil.

Quote:
That crap that happened in Vietnam certainly wasn't defending.
That also goes for Korea, Desert Storm, and the time Regan decided to invade a small island called grenada. (Trust me there are many more conflicts) The reason why i say this, none of those nations posed a direct imminent threat to the U.S.
Obviously you have no understanding of the post colonial era after WW2, the spread of communism and the cold war. You have lots of slogans but absolutley zero facts to support anything you say.

Quote:
Just more bad foreign policy. Trying to change govt or stop the spread of another type of govt.
Some types of govts need to be stopped. So you think dictators and fascists are good people?

Quote:
But the bottom line. When you are sent into Iraq to find WMD that knowingly do not exist. You are a pawn. I know it hurts but it is the truth. You were sent based on a lie. The U.N and many intelligence agencies has warned us about invading Iraq. The U.N officials even strongly doubted the existence of WMD. over 2000 soldier dead based on bad intelligence.
Saddam acted like he had them, so we went in like the UN resolution authorized us to. If saddam played a game of bluff and lost, so what. By the way, you ignore the fact that every intelligence agency in the world supplied us with information and came to the same conclusions. of course you either ignore that or try to deceive us with your "mastery of the facts"

Quote:
please dont use the argument that we went in to save the iraqi people from there brutal dictator. That is just a side argument to counter that fact that George W. and the govt was wrong on this one.
So youre one of those rare types that like dictators starting wars and starving and abusing his own people?

Quote:
If we are liberators we should of liberated the millions of people in Rwanda that have been exterminated.
in a pre 9-11 world, Rwanda was not a national security concern. And even if we HAD gone in, people like you would have found a reason to call us an imperialist power bent on conquest.

Quote:
That argument does not fly.
your right, None of your arguments have flown.
__________________
"Pilot to copilot..... what are those mountain goats doing up here in the clouds?"
syscom3 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2006, 12:41 PM   #126
Der Crewchief
 
DerAdlerIstGelandet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 30,187
Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by kilahchris
I said i will not post again but this will be my last post.
Good I will make sure of that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kilachris
You are a pawn.
And thats why its your last!
__________________

US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006

Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes:

fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"

"wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2"

"ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life"
DerAdlerIstGelandet is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2006, 01:15 PM   #127
IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
 
FLYBOYJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 13,520
Country:
Here, use some of this....

__________________
"IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT"
FLYBOYJ is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2006, 02:20 PM   #128
Senior Member
 
Hunter368's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 2,205
Country:
Good one Joe, I like it. (I still laugh, when I think about it, when I first joined the forum you called me a NDP'er, if only our American Mods knew what a insult that was you might of been warned, lol)



I just didn't like the fact that the guy would voice his opinion and then would not listen to our respones. Thats not debating that just being a a-hole. If you have enough marbles to say something then back it up and debate, don't just insult people and call them pawns b/c you don't agree with them.

Has he been banned?
__________________


In the ocean of the military, reflective of all distinguished pilots, an honored Buddhist person.
Hunter368 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2006, 02:36 PM   #129
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Phila, Pa
Posts: 2,613
Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ
Here, use some of this....


Love it!
timshatz is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2006, 02:40 PM   #130
Senior Member
 
syscom3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 8,444
Israel's military stunned by the failure of its air war

I just read this on the Drudge Report. Ive been wondering why the UAV's Israel has, havent been more effective. If even part of this is true, any attack on Iran is a lot more unlikely from a conventional weapons point of view.

World Tribune.com -- Israel's military stunned by the failure of its air war

Israel's military stunned by the failure of its air war

SPECIAL TO WORLD TRIBUNE.COM
Friday, July 21, 2006
TEL AVIV — Israel's new chief of staff, an air force general, believed that most of Israel's future operations would be conducted from the air.

Military leaders were convinced that with superior communications and air power they did not even need new U.S. "bunker buster" munitions to root out terror leaders in underground hideaways.

Today, this vision of air power as a panacea has been shattered.

Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz and his advisers have been stunned by the failure of Israel's air war against Hizbullah, which has shrugged massive air bombings on its headquarters in Beirut to maintain the rocket war against the Jewish state.



"Air power is not the answer here," a senior officer said. 'You have to go from one Hizbullah [weapons] bunker to another. Some of these bunkers are seven meters deep and can't be destroyed by aircraft, even if you could find them."
The air force learned that lesson in Beirut as fighter-jets sought to destroy Hizbullah headquarters. Officials acknowledged that 23 tons of munitions failed to penetrate the thick walls of the underground command headquarters constructed by Iran.

Indeed, the air force did not even deem the purchase of deep penetration munitions a priority. Earlier this year, Israel decided against purchasing U.S.-origin bunker-buster weapons regarded as a requirement for any air strike against Iran or Syria.

Military sources said Halutz was convinced that communications and air power rather than troops would rapidly win Israel's wars. They said the air force was surprised by its failure to halt or even reduce Hizbullah rocket strikes.

Only a month ago, Lt. Col. Itay Brun explained the concept of Israel's military. The concept envisioned an army based largely on special operations units and backed by air power.

As Brun described it, most of Israel's operations would be conducted from the air. Fighter-jets would destroy guerrilla strongholds, helicopters would pick off enemy combatants while unmanned aerial vehicles would select and track targets. Most of the tactics would also be used in a conventional war.

"The next challenge is to win the war against terrorism and guerrillas from the air," Brun, adviser to Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz, told a military conference.

But he General Staff quickly learned that Hizbullah was not a Shi'ite version of the Palestinian insurgency in the Gaza Strip. For years, the air force boasted of its ability to kill Palestinian insurgency leaders while glossing over the failure to halt missile strikes from Gaza towns only three kilometers from Israel.

"We are fighting a much more capable [Hizbullah] terror organization which practically holds a sword to our neck and has 12 percent of the Israeli population living in shelters and paralyzes the entire northern part of the country," Brig. Gen. Ido Nehushtan said.

"As aggressive and effective as the air war has been, there is still a need for ground operations," Maj. Gen. Benny Ganz, chief of the Ground Forces Command, said.

As a result, the General Staff has approved the entry of at least 5,000 troops in Lebanon in a limited search-and-destroy mission for Hizbullah rockets in villages near the Israeli border. So far, about 3,000 soldiers have been deployed in southern Lebanon, where attack aircraft and unmanned aerial vehicles failed to detect and battle Hizbullah fighters in the thick hilly underbrush.

On Friday, two AH-64A Apache attack helicopters crashed in northern Israel near the Lebanese border. The military said a pilot was killed and another four soldiers were injured as the helicopters sought to support troops in Lebanon.

As the air force received 60 percent of the military budget, army training was cut to the bone and the armored corps was significantly reduced.

Reservists forgot what the inside of a main battle tank looked like. Army supplies dwindled way past the danger point as military intelligence dismissed the prospect of a conventional war against Israel.

Over the last two years, the Ground Forces Command has been administering the Digital Army Program, a nearly $1 billion effort to link ground forces assets to ensure situational awareness as well as coordination with the air force and navy.

Today, Israel's advanced technology has been unable to detect, let alone stop Hizbullah assaults. Military sources said Hizbullah quickly developed methods to penetrate Israel's C4I [command, control, communications, computers and intelligence] border system, based on advanced sensors and heavy air surveillance.

Hizbullah, the sources said, learned how to disable cameras and exploit blind spots to cut through the border fence and attack Israeli military positions. They said this was how a small Hizbullah force attacked an Israeli border post on July 12 and abducted two soldiers.

The military acknowledged that for more than one hour commanders were unaware that soldiers had been taken to Lebanon. Commanders said they were caught off guard by Hizbullah's mastery of anti-tank weapons, mortars and platoon-sized maneuvers.

"It may be that we don't have our priorities straight," said [Res.] Maj. Gen. Yiftah Ron-Tal, who until 2005 headed the Ground Forces Command.

To some strategists, the Israeli concept of air power was doomed to failure. In a lecture at Tel Aviv University in March, [Res.] Maj. Gen. Yaakov Amidror, a former head of military intelligence research, warned that ground forces and tanks have remained far more flexible and resilient than aircraft.

"The policymakers must understand the limitations of the air force," Amidror said. "My feeling is that the air force does not sufficiently stress its weaknesses."

In a report released on July 19 by the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, Amidror and co-author Dan Diker argued that Israel could be forced to convert its air war to a ground war in Lebanon. The report, entitled "A Strategic Assessment of the Hizbullah War: Defeating the Iranian-Syrian Axis in Lebanon," asserted that Israel underestimated the Iranian-sponsored Shi'ite militia, trained and equipped by Damascus and Teheran.

"This is a war in which Israel is acting primarily through its air force, which is a new approach," the report said. "However, if Israel's air force fails to stop Hizbullah rocket assaults, Israel may be forced to send in substantial ground forces to control the areas from which rockets are being launched. This real possibility would have far-reaching implications in terms of potential losses for the IDF and for the citizens of Lebanon."
__________________
"Pilot to copilot..... what are those mountain goats doing up here in the clouds?"
syscom3 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2006, 02:55 PM   #131
Senior Member
 
Hunter368's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 2,205
Country:
Israel is standing on the border massing troops now. Its going to happen, count on it. They are going into Lebanon to create a buffer zone to push back the limit or range that the rockets can reach into Israel. Then what happens I am not sure, but they need to create a buffer zone.

IMHO
__________________


In the ocean of the military, reflective of all distinguished pilots, an honored Buddhist person.
Hunter368 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2006, 03:22 PM   #132
Senior Member
 
syscom3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 8,444
Yup.

A buffer zone will be created. I think a UN force will go in afterwards, but it will be made up of countries that Israel has chosen, and it will have the muscle and backing to keep Hezbollah out.
__________________
"Pilot to copilot..... what are those mountain goats doing up here in the clouds?"
syscom3 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2006, 03:29 PM   #133
Senior Member
 
Hunter368's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 2,205
Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by syscom3
Yup.

A buffer zone will be created. I think a UN force will go in afterwards, but it will be made up of countries that Israel has chosen, and it will have the muscle and backing to keep Hezbollah out.
Makes sense to me, we will see. I would not want to serve in UN there, what a crap hole assignment that would be.

My best freind severed in Cyprus for a year, he has many stories from there. This will be much worse than Cyprus.
__________________


In the ocean of the military, reflective of all distinguished pilots, an honored Buddhist person.
Hunter368 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2006, 07:18 PM   #134
"Shooter"
 
evangilder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Moorpark, CA
Posts: 12,834
Country:
Send a message via Yahoo to evangilder
Good response syscom. No WMD in Iraq you say? You might want to take a look at this recently unclassified document before making unfounded accusations of where we get our news, bud. If you rely only on the media for information on what is going on in the world, then you are totally misinformed.

You talk about all the innocent Arab lives, are the innocent Israeli live inconsequential to you? Hezbollah actually tunneled into Israeli territory to attack that outpost and kidnap the soldier. Then they started launching the Katyusha rockets into Israel by the hundreds. But when the Israelis retaliate, it's NOT okay? When an enemy nation sneaks across your border, kills 2 of your soldiers and kidnaps another, that is an act of war. When they follow up with rocket attacks on civilian cities, another act of war. How much more were the Israelis supposed to take and sit idly by? Do you really think the UN could do anything about it? There are already a bunch of blue helmetted do nothings there.

Your arguments about bad foreign policy are weak, and misinformed. It is clear that you have no idea of the culture of the Middle East and how they work over there.

Now if you wish to talk about WWII aircraft, step in and join in. If you wish to continue this discussion, you would be better suited going somewhere else.
Attached Images
File Type: pdf iraqwmduncl.pdf (106.9 KB, 8 views)
__________________


http://www.vg-photo.com

Wherever their bones may lie, the courage of heroes is consecrated in the hearts and engraved in the history of the free. Lt Col Honner DSO MC, 39th Commander speaking of the dead from the battle of Kokoda.
evangilder is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2006, 08:44 PM   #135
Senior Member
 
102first_hussars's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Edmonton,Alberta
Posts: 2,260
Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter368
Makes sense to me, we will see. I would not want to serve in UN there, what a crap hole assignment that would be.

My best freind severed in Cyprus for a year, he has many stories from there. This will be much worse than Cyprus.

Dont even get me started on Cyprus, My Uncle was in Cyprus in 1973, then I went there in 1989, it was a lost cause, Now being in Cyprus wasnt so bad when I was their but when my Uncle was there atleast once a day somebody was taking potshots at our compound and mortars hitting close to home,

Quote:
Good response syscom. No WMD in Iraq you say? You might want to take a look at this recently unclassified document before making unfounded accusations of where we get our news, bud. If you rely only on the media for information on what is going on in the world, then you are totally misinformed.
I once read somewhere that during the invasion of Iraq, that coalition soldiers came across a SCUD missile warhead, that examiners discovered traces of Sarin all withing the warhead.
__________________
Hello me...meet the real me.
And my misfits way of life.
A dark black past is my
Most valued possession.
Hindsight is always 20-20,
But looking back its still a bit fuzzy.
Speak of mutually assured destruction?
Nice story...tell it to readers digest!!!
102first_hussars is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter