Israel Preparing to Retake Gaza Strip

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

Well, in a way they don't have a very good country, like the Jews didn't have one before. But they sure haven't tried to pick good leaders to lead it.

Can't they find someone less violent than a Hamas strongman to lead their goverment?


Well, I imagine Israel will try to be careful about what it does. But they have survived some pretty tough times before.

[evangilder]

Palestine is only a region of the world, it was never a recognized "country", ever. As long as they choose to have leaders that are hell bent on the destruction of Israel, they get what they deserve.

[Haztoys]

Originally Posted by Frankster_P

I feel sorry for the Palestinians.

Ok its on...One liners do not float around here...

So ..........Why do you feel sorry about the Palestinians...????????

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

Cause Saddam Hussein can't protect them.

Now Iran's President, (whatever his name is) says he will avenge the Palestinians and wipe Israel off the map.

Does Iran have any Russian fighters able to take on Israels F-15's?

[evangilder]

It's not the planes, it's the pilots. I highly doubt the Iranian pilots have anywhere near the training the Israelis have.

[majorwoody10]

jews have always lived in palistine and during the pre war pogroms in russia and eastern europe ,many more jews came to palistine ,the jews bought land ,often bad farm land that the arabs considered usless .the jews bought this land with mony ,they did not ever TAKE it ,the jews made the bad land produce and flourish . after the holocaust many more jews arrived from europe and in 1948 the world allowed the jews to have a tiny place on earth where they could hopefully defend themselves and not be casually murdered by germans ,poles ,ukranians ,russians ,arabs, ect ..immediatly apon gaining statehood the jews were attacked by syrians ,jordanians ,egyptians and evey other arab in close proximity ..the war caused many arabs to leave the new jewish state and become the palistinian refugees ,many other arabs remained , were unharmed and later prospered in israel . israel has had to fight off arab invasions in 48 ,56 ,67 and 73 and has been a constant victim of terrorist attacks thoughout its short history .during these wars the jews did take some land by combat and expand their tiny perimiter . the israelis would love to stop liveing in an armed camp and not drive to work with an uzi on their lap but they are not leaving their country and they will not let arabs kill them all if they can help it .the jews have been ethnicly cleansed too many times in too many places and have decided that they are clean enough now ,they have their own rifles and tanks and planes and artillery and refuse to hop on any cattle cars for rides to camps in poland or anywhere else ..and really , who could blame them ...

[Hop]

Some Jews certainly lived in Palestine for centuries, but after the Romans and Crusaders the numbers were very small.

The first proper census of Palestine was taken in 1922 under the British mandate. This was after Zionist immigration had begun. The population was approx 590,000 Moslems, 83,000 Jews, 73,000 Christians, and a few thousand others.

By 1947 the population was estimated at 1,200,000 Arabs, 600,000 Jews. About 7 - 8% of land had been purchased by Jews, 45% was owned by Arabs, either individually or as collective land for villages, the remainder was owned by the state.

The UN then came up with a partition plan to create 2 states. The Arab state would have 4,500 square miles of land, a population of 800,000 Arabs and 10,000 Jews. The Jewish state would have an area of 5,500 square miles, a population of 540,000 Jews and 400,000 Arabs.

.immediatly apon gaining statehood the jews were attacked by syrians ,jordanians ,egyptians and evey other arab in close proximity

That's a bit disingenuous. The organised fighting began long before the neighbouring Arab countries sent troops (not to mention the random violence that preceded that.) . Look at the fate of, for example, Jaffa. Jaffa was a town of about 70,000 Arabs that was supposed to be in the Arab state. The Hagganah, the main Jewish military force, launched an offensive to take Jaffa on the 25th April, and finally captured the town on the 14th May.

The state of Israel was proclaimed on the 14th May. The neighbouring Arab countries sent troops on the 15th.

israel has had to fight off arab invasions in 48 ,56 ,67 and 73

Huh?

1948 was at a war between two parties who had both resorted to war to achieve their objectives.

1956 was an Israeli invasion of Egypt, in conjunction with the British and French.

1967 was an Israeli pre-emptive attack, against an Egypt that was certainly rattling its sabre, but not actively attacking.

1973 was an invasion.

Of the 4 wars, 1 was an Arab invasion, 1 an Israeli invasion, 1 a war both sides wanted, and 1 a pre-emptive attack by Israel.

Why do you feel sorry about the Palestinians.

I'll tell you why I feel sorry for them. They are a 3rd world people who live on land that the majority of Israelis feel was given to Jews by God. To those Jews, they have a God given right, and a God given duty, to live on, and control, that land.

And the Palestinians are in the way.

The majority of the Palestinian population was born, and has lived their entire life, under Israeli military occupation. If you are 40 or under, and live in the West Bank or Gaza, your entire life has been spent answering to an Israeli military governor. If you are under 50, you cannot really remember a time when you didn't answer to Israeli troops. There are children being born now whose grand parents were not born when the occupation began.

And there's nothing they can do about it. They live on land another people, another religion, has decided is theirs.

As long as they choose to have leaders that are hell bent on the destruction of Israel, they get what they deserve.

There is no Palestinian terrorism on the West Bank now. In the last 15 months 1 Israeli settler has been stabbed dead, out of several hundred thousand who
live there.

There is a peace conference supposed to be starting in the next month in the US. Mahmoud Abbas, the leader of Palestinians on the West Bank, wants final discussions on a Palestinian state. The Israeli government is doing everything they can not to take part in those discussions. A couple of parties in the governing Israeli coalition have said they will leave, and bring down the government, if such issues are discussed.

The problem for the Palestinians is that whoever leads them, whatever they do, they live on land Jews believe is theirs. There's no way they can change that.

This is what one of the correspondents for Haaretz, a left wing Israeli newspaper had to say in answer to a question about the rights of settlers on the West Bank:

We are not talking of colonialism. The morality of "settlement" after 1967, is equivalent to the morality of settling the land after 1948. Morally, historically and religiously, the right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel, takes precedence over the right of other peoples here. The internal dispute within Israel is over what is possible within the framework of the security and international reality that the country faces

[evangilder]

There is no Palestinian terrorism on the West Bank now?!?! Oh the naivete. There have not necessarily been terrorist acts committed within the West Bank, but it's still there.

Mahmoud Abbas was originally part of the PLO. Abu Daoud, the terrorist who led the attack on Munich in 1972 has stated in his autobiography that Mahmoud Abbas was the man who got the operation funded! Yet he is considered "moderate" by the west.

Now Hamas is basically the de-facto power for the Palestinians. The Palestinians back these people up. As long as terrorists rule the Palestinians, Israel has every right to not deal with them. Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Israel and it's government replaced by Muslim rule. Hamas is the one that is responsible for most of the suicide bombings against civilian targets.

Take a look at history and see what freedoms have been in place for Israeli rule versus Arab rule in any of those zones. Unfortunately, the freedoms that Israel gives to everyone in their areas is taken advantage of by many Arabs.

Until the Muslim world reaches the age of enlightenment, which they haven't yet, they will not be capable of supporting a lasting peace.

[Hop]

There is no Palestinian terrorism on the West Bank now?!?! Oh the naivete. There have not necessarily been terrorist acts committed within the West Bank, but it's still there.

There is no active, organised terrorism.

Mahmoud Abbas was originally part of the PLO. Abu Daoud, the terrorist who led the attack on Munich in 1972 has stated in his autobiography that Mahmoud Abbas was the man who got the operation funded! Yet he is considered "moderate" by the west.

Menachem Begin ordered the bombing of the King David hotel, the murder of British hostages, and countless terrorist attacks against the British and Arabs.

Yitzhak Shamir ordered the murder of Lord Moyne and the UN envoy Folke Bernadotte.

Ariel Sharon murdered dozens of civilians at Qibya and sent in Lebanese militias to clear out Palestinian camps his troops had surrounded, killing thousands of civilians.

If the past matters more than the future, neither side has clean hands, and the future will merely be a repeat of the past.

Now Hamas is basically the de-facto power for the Palestinians.

Hamas runs the Gaza Strip. Abbas runs the West Bank. If Abbas cannot demonstrate that peace will bring about a Palestinian state, then Hamas will indeed end up representing all Palestinians.

As long as terrorists rule the Palestinians, Israel has every right to not deal with them.

The problem is, Israel won't deal with them when they are not ruled by terrorists, and are committed to peace.

What message does that send out to the Palestinians? If they cannot achieve freedom through peaceful negotiation, what options are left to them?

Take a look at history and see what freedoms have been in place for Israeli rule versus Arab rule in any of those zones. Unfortunately, the freedoms that Israel gives to everyone in their areas is taken advantage of by many Arabs.

Freedoms? Arabs are not even allowed as much water as Jews in the West Bank. Their lands are seized to make new settlements, any disputes are dealt with by Israeli courts, enforced by the Israeli army.

Until the Muslim world reaches the age of enlightenment, which they haven't yet, they will not be capable of supporting a lasting peace.

Like, say, Jordan? Or Egypt?

Israel has signed peace deals with two of it's neighbours. They have held.

Israel granted citizenship to those Arabs that remained in Israel. Whilst a tiny handful of Israeli Arabs have been involved on the fringes of terrorism, the Israeli Arab population has not rebelled against the Israeli government.

It's the Palestinians, who Israel denies citizenship whilst controlling their territory, that engage in violence against Israel.

[Erich]

I'm sorry but I must disagree, the terrorism is very organized in thought, how it is protrayed is another story usually at random but that is what the Phillistines wanted from day one under the the little dwarf who started by bombing innocents on aircraft. the other larger mid-east nations are just wwatching looking for a hole to step through and try as they might to squash little Israel if they can

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Hop

There is no active, organised terrorism.

That is not true. The Palestinians do use organized terrorism against Israel. I even watched a documentary on it the other day where a German news group was allowed to go and interview leaders of cells and filmed them preparing for attacks on Israelis and also how they recruited Suicide Bombers.

One of the most prominant Terrorist Groups are the Popular Resistance Committees which operate in the Gaza Strip. They are composed of ex-Fatah militants combined with Hamas, Islamic Jihad and al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades members.

Other orgainized Terror groups that operate there are:

Tanzim (Arabic: تنظيم, Organization in Arabic) is a faction of the Palestinian FATAH movement. It is seen as a more militant "new guard" within Fatah, as opposed to the "old guard" which supported the Oslo peace process[citation needed]. Tanzim came to prominence in the street fighting which marked the beginning of the second Palestinian Intifada. Its members tend to be younger than those of other Fatah factions, often having grown up in the post-Oslo era. One of its leaders is Marwan Barghouti. Many Tanzim members have joined the al-Shaid Yasser Arafat Brigades (formerly the al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades). Tanzim has recruited a number of female suicide bombers[1] [2], including Andaleeb Takatka, a 20-year-old Bethlehem woman who, on April 12, 2002, detonated an explosive belt at a Jerusalem bus stop, killing six Israelis, and injuring sixty.

Hamas (حركة حماس; acronym: حركة المقاومة الاسلامية, or Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya or "Islamic Resistance Movement,") is a Palestinian Islamic militant organization and political party.

The Islamic Jihad Movement in Palestine (Arabic: حركة الجهاد الإسلامي في فلسطين, - Harakat al-Jihād al-Islāmi fi Filastīn) is a militant Palestinian group that is designated as a terrorist group by the United States[6], the European Union [7], the United Kingdom[8], Japan[9], Canada[10], Australia[11] and Israel. Their goal is the destruction of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Islamic state.

The al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades (Arabic: كتائب شهداء الأقصى) is a Palestinian militant resistance group closely linked to the Fatah political party and Peace Now Brigades .The Brigades is one of the most active forces in al-Aqsa Intifada. The group targets israeli soldiers and sometimes civilians.

It is also obvious that Hezbollah operates in Palestine as well.

Most of the definitions of these terror groups was taken from Wikipedia. Not the best source but for a definition it is okay.

[Haztoys]

The one point that the Pro "poor Palestinian" group never bring up is the fact that the Palestinians do not just want a home land ..They want ALL of the Isreali land and the Isrealis gone and dead..I would be all for the Palestinian having a peace of land ..If thats what would make them happy..But they will not be happy or stop untill Israel is gone ... The Isrealis have been there as long as the Palestinians ..And have a right to be there too...

The Palestinians will not stop at just "a home land"...They have said that them selfs...

[Haztoys]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

That is not true. The Palestinians do use organized terrorism against Israel. I even watched a documentary on it the other day where a German news group was allowed to go and interview leaders of cells and filmed them preparing for attacks on Israelis and also how they recruited Suicide Bombers.

One of the most prominant Terrorist Groups are the Popular Resistance Committees which operate in the Gaza Strip. They are composed of ex-Fatah militants combined with Hamas, Islamic Jihad and al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades members.

Other orgainized Terror groups that operate there are:

Tanzim (Arabic: تنظيم, Organization in Arabic) is a faction of the Palestinian FATAH movement. It is seen as a more militant "new guard" within Fatah, as opposed to the "old guard" which supported the Oslo peace process[citation needed]. Tanzim came to prominence in the street fighting which marked the beginning of the second Palestinian Intifada. Its members tend to be younger than those of other Fatah factions, often having grown up in the post-Oslo era. One of its leaders is Marwan Barghouti. Many Tanzim members have joined the al-Shaid Yasser Arafat Brigades (formerly the al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades). Tanzim has recruited a number of female suicide bombers[1] [2], including Andaleeb Takatka, a 20-year-old Bethlehem woman who, on April 12, 2002, detonated an explosive belt at a Jerusalem bus stop, killing six Israelis, and injuring sixty.

Hamas (حركة حماس; acronym: حركة المقاومة الاسلامية, or Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya or "Islamic Resistance Movement,") is a Palestinian Islamic militant organization and political party.

The Islamic Jihad Movement in Palestine (Arabic: حركة الجهاد الإسلامي في فلسطين, - Harakat al-Jihād al-Islāmi fi Filastīn) is a militant Palestinian group that is designated as a terrorist group by the United States[6], the European Union [7], the United Kingdom[8], Japan[9], Canada[10], Australia[11] and Israel. Their goal is the destruction of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Islamic state.

The al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades (Arabic: كتائب شهداء الأقصى) is a Palestinian militant resistance group closely linked to the Fatah political party and Peace Now Brigades .The Brigades is one of the most active forces in al-Aqsa Intifada. The group targets israeli soldiers and sometimes civilians.

It is also obvious that Hezbollah operates in Palestine as well.

Most of the definitions of these terror groups was taken from Wikipedia. Not the best source but for a definition it is okay.

And when they do get there own country what group of these Butchers are going to rule Palestinian.?..These Terrorist Groups are all working together against Israel right now..Once (or if ) the get there country or all of Israels land ..They will turn on each other ...Palestinian against Palestinians...

So who would rule Palestinian..???

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Good question. It is one that I unfortunatly dont have an answer for.

[Haztoys]

Google "Palestian school maps" and see what you get ...Real eye opener .. ...And they want peace my a$$...