Israel's Withdrawal from Gaza

Pisis · 08-16-2005, 05:57 PM

Tomorrow the Gaza Strip should be officially given to Palestinian Government. I dunno what to think about it. Will it actually change something? I don't think so, since the Hamas is fighting for power with the regular PG and that's the ****.

It is nice that Israel (Sharon) made a peace willingness sign but on the other hand I can understand the settlers. If you build something for 30 years with your own hands, you're supported by the government and then by the same government you're forced to leave it, it's quite tragicomic and wierd........

We'll see what's gonna happen now...............

ariel81 · 08-18-2005, 06:23 AM

no,because they want to destroy israel,not to live side by side

SM79Sparviero · 08-18-2005, 07:46 AM

Gaza territories are under militar control by Israel, not under sovranity of this state.From the point of view of international rights Israelian colonies are not legal, but few people in ONU dare speak to Israel clearly ,in particular say "NOT" in those circumstances in which Israel is not right.

The decision of withdrawing Gaza was democratically taken by a sovran state by a democratical consultation, I don't know if it has always been possible to consider Israel "democratic" but in this moment for this problem their behaviour is democratic.Every day in Italy a democratical gouvernment takes decision that may be highly unpopular for someone

nce people have chosen their bicycle they have to ride on it,later.

More interesting:isnt' it strange that the Religious are most strenuous defenders of Gaza colonies , while the Rabins themselves in the world had always adversed the creation of Israel state and the Jewish migration to Palestine ( as the "promised land" had to be considered no more than a spiritual entity)?
I am wondering if someone in this moment in Gaza is encouraging a war among poor people (Jewish colons, Palestinians, also soldiers and policemen, they may be different but they are all on the same sinking ship ) for his own purposes.......

lesofprimus · 08-18-2005, 07:54 AM

ariels right... I dont think there could ever be peace over there, unless the Israelis leave the Middle East....

plan_D · 08-18-2005, 09:08 AM

It is also right that Gaza is not part of Israel, it has merely occupied the area for 38 years under military rule. And look what happened, an Israeli extremist shot four Palestinians civilians. See, they're as bad as each other.

evangilder · 08-18-2005, 09:26 AM

That's the heart of the problem, extremism on both sides. It is okay to have disagreements, but when you strap a bomb on yourself or go nuts with a gun against random people, it leads nowhere. The problem is that the people who are getting killed are probably just average Joes and Janes that want to live in peace. That is, until your family member gets blown to smithereens by an extremist. Hard not to become one yourself when that happens.

Nonskimmer · 08-18-2005, 10:00 AM

Like Sparviero said, Gaza is not actually a part of Israel, not really. True, Israel won the territory in a war and occupied it accordingly, but if the Israeli government was going to allow mass settlement of the land by the civilian population then they should have been prepared to back them forever. Otherwise, they should never have allowed their own people to settle there. This is a needless mess that's going on there now, with the evacuation. Those Jewish settlers there are rightfully pissed off in my opinion. They should never have been allowed to settle there in the first place unless Israel was willing to stick to their guns for all time, concerning the occupied territories. That's a huge commitment, but that's what was called for.

evangilder · 08-18-2005, 10:07 AM

To be honest NS, I don't think there was ever a plan to evacuate those areas when they started settling people in there. Times have changed in those years. Wars in the ME have made borders fluid over the years. But it is terrible to have to uproot people that have lived there for 30 years. What happens next is a mystery, but it may nt be pretty. There are essentially three groups vying for control there, once all the Israelis are out; the Palestinian Authority, the Islamic Jihad and Hamas. I have a feeling it could get ugly.

Nonskimmer · 08-18-2005, 10:20 AM

Oh it'll get ugly, there's no doubt.

The world is full of land exchanges. One that many people forget about is the Crimean Peninsula. Although it's been part of Ukraine since 1954 (Of course, it hardly mattered then. It was all the USSR.), ninty-plus percent of the population there is still ethnic Russian, and the majority of them wish for the land to return to Russian territory. They've been pretty vocal about it too. A future mess in the making?

And I haven't been following this for sometime, but isn't the Russian Black Sea Fleet still negotiating for the use of Sevastopol as a base?

evangilder · 08-18-2005, 10:27 AM

Could be. There is always a potential for a flashpoint when borders change and ethnicities differ. Yugoslavia is a good example of what can happen when the fit hits the shan.

Pisis · 08-18-2005, 11:10 AM

Yeah, the Russian army still claims to use Sevastopol as a military base but the local government disagree.....

ariel81 · 08-18-2005, 04:31 PM

yes but the difference is that we put our extremist in jail,they make them heroes

but y agree with the pullout,but i dont think that will bring peace

evangilder · 08-18-2005, 04:37 PM

True Ariel, anyone else would call them criminals as well. I agree that it won't bring peace. If anything, it will give the terrorists another base of operations.

SM79Sparviero · 08-19-2005, 01:01 AM

Quote:

They should never have been allowed to settle there in the first place unless Israel was willing to stick to their guns for all time, concerning the occupied territories

Quote:

But it is terrible to have to uproot people that have lived there for 30 years

i don't know how these things work in Britain, USA or Canada, but in the "democratic" Italy it can happen ONCE AT MONTH, or more often,It is called EXPROPRIATION:if you have a field that has belonged to your father and of you grandfather and to his father etc and an administrative authority needs it to build a roadway , they will pay you but you have a legal obligation to leave the field(unless ypo belong to mafia or masonry or simply rotary club, in this eventuality it will be probably the roadway that will make a turn around your terrain) .

In Israel we are seeing a worrying intrusion from the religious authority of ultra-orthodox Rabins in the authority of the lay state and in its legal system, as it is happening today for the dark side of Islam ( any further consideration about it is futile,by now) or for Catholic Church ,where each day the man that you Anglicans call "the leader of the papist seth" expresses himself about matters that are by far outside his authority.....

If religious authorities had not been passively listened in the past many Jewish could have gradually migrate to Palestine since 1917 , maybe ( it is a purely speculative consideration) sionism would have not its authoritary imperialistic brutal configuration, anyway many Jewish could save themselves from Holocaust and from the more subtle anti-semitism of other countries.
I am not speaking of rich diamond traders or bank owners but of those poor people that could gain something from an emigration.
The same kind of people which are now taken away forcedly from their homes by Israelian army, squashed between the authority of the lay state and the ambitions of power of the Rabins.

ariel81 · 08-19-2005, 05:49 AM

sinism is not imperialistic,that's the tipical euro trash bulshit
and the religius authorithies have lees power that what you think,a lot more