Kosovo Independence-- Good thing or a bad thing?

[freebird]

Originally Posted by Profa

To shorten story a little... Albanians won by numbers - they had 9-12 children, while Serbs had 1-2. In 60's/70's lots of Serbs sold their property to Albanians, or were simply expelled (under the "blind-eyed authorities") to move to central Serbia. But, it wasn't until 1981 that we have heard for the first time for the slogan "Kosovo republic".

When Yugoslavia started its breaking apart, they had seen their chance in weakened, slow and bad organised serbian army and made their final move in organising their "army"...
It is important to mention that there were no serbian attrocities and crimes until 1998/1999, when Milosevic made cardinal mistake...

I'm at your dispose for any question or comment

I'll join others in the simple question: "would your country let any ethnic minority proclaim its indepedence and expell country's majority?"
I'd like to see USA in the case of Mexicans, Germany (and other european countries) vs Turks, France vs. Algerians etc...

Interesting post Profa. I had a similar opinion before too about Kosovo -why not give them independance? But the more I read about it the less clear the solution is. It is a shame that Tito & the others allowed the Albanians to establish themselves in former Serbian territory, now all of these regions want to break away.

[Kruska]

Hello Profa,

Actually it doesn’t make much sense to discuss a present political issue based on historical background that dates back till 1204. But on the other hand it shows how distorted the Serbian approach still is.

In 1355 the biggest extension of the Serbian rule, not Serbian culture or race.
As an independent kingdom it only existed from 1204 till 1459 so 250 years.

In 1840 Croatia restarts to emerge. In 1913 Serbia starts to size up on its territory which is less than 15% of the Tito Yugoslavia.

IEG-MAPS

In 1918 the founding of the KINGDOM OF SERBS, CROATS AND SLOVENES (SHS), takes place, since 1929 named YUGOSLAVIA, the rest is occupied by Italy, Bulgaria, Rumania and Hungary, later by Nazi Germany.



WHKMLA : Historical Atlas, Yugoslavia Page

After WW2 Tito takes over the whole place, calls it again Yugoslavia and places it under Serbian rule and domination. Voted by who?

And now in 2008 all the Serbs can do is to point at a map of the 14th century. If Tito didn’t bother about Albanian influence or population then why complain now?

Imagine Germany which exists in various setups since the 10th century for almost 1000 years would start to point at maps dating 1204. At least they could prove a German Territory that actually covers until today in race and language many neighboring countries unlike Serbia.

Well unfortunately Germany got itself into some wars, such as Serbia and paid dearly for it. Now we are looking towards a united Europe and not on some maps dating back hundreds of years.
It is Belgrade’s behavior and action that made the split-up possible until today’s Kosovo problem. Because they never tried to talk, negotiate and present an economical future for all parties but preferred to send tanks and pointing on maps dating …………. .

So if these Kosovo Albanians (the majority is mostly street gangs and criminals anyway) want to be amongst themselves, let them be. Or prove that most of them are actually Albanian citizen’s who “lost” their “Yugoslav” passports. I do however agree that the EU or the US has no jurisdiction in this matter – or to give active support towards a free independent Kosovo.

By the way there is a strict procedure in Germany regarding the allocation or settling of approved foreigners in Germany – in order to avoid ethnic miss fittings. This procedure is however claimed to be “Racial” and shows “Nazi” tendencies according to liberals such as the Green Party suckers or even Israel if it fits into their anti German policy. (Oh my God, I really don’t want to open this topic)

Regards
Kruska

[Milos Sijacki]

I have recently, on my faculty, started the studies on HISTORIOGRAPHIC METAFICTION. The history itself has many ways of being told. There are various different approaches to a certain period in the history of mankind. I say, let us stop looking at something that can be so easily manipulated, let us stop looking to the past and start looking into the future. Germans tried to use the past in order to wage wars, especially during WW2 and it brought them nothing but, correct me if I'm wrong, 50 years of division between east and west. I'm not saying that nobody should be ashamed of their past, even the dark one. It happened, try to stop it from happening again.

I have also recently discovered that the claim of Albanians being direct descendents of Illyrians is not 100% sure, because there is a 300 year gap between them.

Personally, I think that US is abusing its power in this whole matter, just as Jews are overdoing with their accusing someone of Fascism because they were prosecuted by NAZIS and FASCISTS. Serbs were too, Russians, Roma and all others who didn't fit into Nazi politics.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Kruska

Being a proud Bavarian myself I do resent certain German values or behavior,

Where in Bavaria do you live. I live near Nuernberg. I love telling the Frankisch people that they are in Bavaria!

[chuckn49]

The history lessons being given here by various authoritative individuals are very interesting and enlightening but, I fear, irrelevant. In the end, what will matter is not whether the peoples of Kosovo want independence but whether they are capable of it. I am very doubtful that an independent Kosovo is possible or desirable either for its citizens or for the region.
Almost every successfully independent nation in the modern world is an amalgamation of multiple smaller entities none of which could survive on their own but, in union with other similar entities, are able to form viable political entities that, in general, have benefited all the subsets. My own nation, the United States, embodies this principle in its own history. Once we had gained our independence from our mother countries (France & Spain can be included in our list of mother countries as can other nations), we quickly devolved into 13 feuding, competing nation states.
It was quickly realized that our idealistic but impractical loose Confederation was not going to work. For better or worse, our peoples decided we needed a more cohesive union if we were to survive as a country. It has more or less worked for us now for over 200 years which, in the course of human history, is barely a second of time. A number of our states experimented with the Confederacy style of government again during our Civil War with the same rather predictable results as the first Confederacy had experienced. In their case, though, what the original authors of our Constitution had feared would happen did happen to this new Confederacy -- it was soundly beaten by a better organized, more cohesive nation despite a sometimes courageous defense. In the end, it was conquered and ceased to exist.
What I think this demonstrates, though, is that nation states need certain things if they are to survive such as a cohesive population at peace with itself for the most part, resources to provide both sustenance and trade or something unique about them that makes them relatively invulnerable to encroachment by others such as a defensible geographic location or, as in the case of the Swiss, a national resource whose value to others makes its survival as important to them as it is to the Swiss.
My knowledge of Kosovo and its environs is admittedly limited but, I have not seen anyone here indicate what assets Kosovo has that would make it a viable nation in that region. Yugoslavia was created precisely because it was thought that its subsets could not long exist outside of some union with others in the region. Unfortunately, this artificial construct may not have been well thought out. It would be better if these ethnic subsets sought their own unions based on commonalities rather than have them forced upon them by outsiders.
I would be interested if someone here could explain just how an independent Kosovo could survive without outside support and why that support should be given, by whom and for how long. As I have said before, it is my impression that this political movement will only accomplish more violence, more enmity and, in the end, a Kosovo that is part of some larger, more powerful entity such as Albania which is, I fear, possibly the hidden agenda of some who are agitating for an independent Kosovo.

[freebird]

Originally Posted by chuckn49

The history lessons being given here by various authoritative individuals are very interesting and enlightening but, I fear, irrelevant. As I have said before, it is my impression that this political movement will only accomplish more violence, more enmity and, in the end, a Kosovo that is part of some larger, more powerful entity such as Albania which is, I fear, possibly the hidden agenda of some who are agitating for an independent Kosovo.

Hardly irrelevant Chuck, the question of what rights new immigrants have to agitate for independance for certain areas of a country is certainly a relavant question.

[Njaco]

I've been following this thread as I know absoulutely nothing about the subject but my little opinion....

What exactly is the purpose of all this conflict and what is the requested outcome?

It appears to me that this is a global human condition. For thousands of years when there was more land than people, areas developed with cultures, etc. Now the world is changing and people are migrating all over, either through political or economic reasons. Its been happening for years but there has been no acceptance of the changes that mankind is experiencing. Is nationalism a good thing? Is a global economy and politics the way?

I find it very hard to accept when someone relocates to another country for whatever reason and then demands and fights for acceptance of their country of origin.

While the US continues with its experiment of all people living together, the rest of the world is breaking into little factions. Next it will be blue-eyed people against brown eyed people. I may be off base and like I said I'm not very knowledgable about this subject but I can't help wondering what is the ultimate goal?

[Kruska]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Where in Bavaria do you live. I live near Nuernberg. I love telling the Frankisch people that they are in Bavaria!

Hello D.A.I.G.

I originate from Regensburg, and we love to call the Franken jokingly “Beute Bayern”, (Bounty Bavarians) for which they off course don’t love us more. Everybody talks about EU and global economy, but for some funny reason things can get very small in Europe or Bavaria if it comes to tradition and home feelings.

I used to have some good contacts (still have some) to German-American friends during my Army times from Landsberg, Amberg and Neu Ulm, and some of them had Bavarian heritage in them; they too tended to be far more affected by “territorial” disputes then those with pure German heritage. Some even served in the Bundeswehr instead of the US Forces. Another interesting (amusing) part was that their American fathers carried Family names such as Spitzens, Stovall, Hintz, Bauer and Bloch and three of them originated from Bavaria.

Must be the Brezeln and Leberkaese that forced them to come back

Regards
Kruska

[Kruska]

Originally Posted by Njaco

While the US continues with its experiment of all people living together, the rest of the world is breaking into little factions. Next it will be blue-eyed people against brown eyed people. I may be off base and like I said I'm not very knowledgable about this subject but I can't help wondering what is the ultimate goal?

Hello Njaco,

I think it is the word or habit of “TOLERANCE”. The so called American way of life is full with tolerance maybe sometimes too much for the European liking. Not that I would fully agree to this very typical US attribute, but on the other hand I do have to admit that it helps a lot to avoid head on collisions.

Every time when I visit your country I am amazed about how casual and polite people are to each other (well there are dumb buds in any country).

I am very sure that regardless of Bush, any European country that would possess the might or power of the US would be far more aggressive, unforgiving and dominant against others then the US has been since WW2.

Regards
Kruska

[chuckn49]

Originally Posted by freebird

Hardly irrelevant Chuck, the question of what rights new immigrants have to agitate for independance for certain areas of a country is certainly a relavant question.

I was referring to its relevance re: whether Kosovo should or should not be independent. Since it is my opinion that Kosovo does not have the resources to ever be an "independent" country, the "right" of any citizen or immigrant to agitate for its independence is moot. On the other hand, if there is a hidden agenda for these people to ultimately have Kosovo annexed to another nation, for example, Albania, then their status in the country (new immigrants or native citizens) is certainly germane.
I live in a state in the US somewhat famous (or infamous, depending on one's perspective) for its parochialism. It is often said here that you will never be considered a native until you are a 4th or 5th generation descendant in the state. I've lived here almost 30 years yet I will always be a "flat-lander" to the natives. From what I've read in the postings here, I would suspect one has to trace one's ancestry back to Roman times before some in Europe will consider you a "native" and not an immigrant.
That being said, many in the US are suspicious of the motivations of some of our newer immigrants, particularly from Mexico. Despite some of our more liberal citizens' viewpoints, I am of the belief that we have an "American" culture that has been very successful for us. I respect that others value their unique cultures, too. One size does not fit all. However, immigrating to another peoples' country implies your willingness to accept that country's culture, its laws, its traditions and to adapt to its customs -- not demand it adapt to yours. If you think your culture is better, then why did you leave?
I think most Americans will welcome legal immigrants who come here because they value what our culture has to offer. We are, after all, a land of immigrants. If, on the other hand, they value their culture more, I'd welcome them to go back and live in it. Each to his own but, not each to impose his own on someone else.
Thus, I am somewhat confused as to what business it is of the rest of Europe or the US what the peoples of the Balkans choose to do unless their conflict affects those not involved. I am of the same opinion re: Iraq. The US only has an interest to the extent that what goes on in Iraq affects us. If the Iraqi's chose a Moslem theocracy, then, more power to them. Just don't screw with other people and everyone should leave them alone. In the end, it is the people who live in a nation who should and who do have the responsibility to decide what sort of land they will have.

[Milos Sijacki]

Concerning Kosovo as an self running independent state, I think it will be years, even decades before it becomes able to sustain itself all alone and without any foreign help.

I also have to agree with Profa.

[Profa]

Originally Posted by Kruska

Hello Profa,
Actually it doesn’t make much sense to discuss a present political issue based on historical background that dates back till 1204. But on the other hand it shows how distorted the Serbian approach still is.

I just tried to explain some historical background behind Kosovo story... And you can't say I'm wrong, sorry...

Originally Posted by Kruska

After WW2 Tito takes over the whole place, calls it again Yugoslavia and places it under Serbian rule and domination. Voted by who?

Not true, sorry... It was first Yugoslavia (and former SHS), and that not completely, that was under Serbian domination. Tito, for start, was Croat (Croat/Slovenian)... And, in Yugoslavia, people didn't vote for communists (at least not open-hearted). They simply came and took the government. But, that's another story...

Originally Posted by Kruska

And now in 2008 all the Serbs can do is to point at a map of the 14th century. If Tito didn’t bother about Albanian influence or population then why complain now?

He, in the first place, was FOR, and not against, their settlement in Kosovo...

Originally Posted by Kruska

It is Belgrade’s behavior and action that made the split-up possible until today’s Kosovo problem. Because they never tried to talk, negotiate and present an economical future for all parties but preferred to send tanks and pointing on maps dating …………. .

Couldn't agree more with you. It were for Serbs that were quiet in Tito's days that now you have Albanian majority in Kosovo... Speaking of negotiations - how could you negotiate with somebody who doesn't show even small ammount of compromise but keeps on telling "We want independent state", knowing that US will stand behind it (it happened in 1998 and again in the last 3 years)

Originally Posted by Kruska

So if these Kosovo Albanians (the majority is mostly street gangs and criminals anyway) want to be amongst themselves, let them be.

Therefore you should let Basques in Spain have their state (let them be), UK should leave Ireland alone (let them be)... On the other hand, we're talking about thousands of Serbs who don't want to live in Kosovo/Albania and hundreds of serbian churches that should stand and not be burned like in 2004 (FIVE years after the 1999)... It's culture we're talking about...
YouTube - Kosovo. Devic monastery. March 2004
YouTube - Kosovo. Pogrom. March 2004. Part 1/2
YouTube - Kosovo. Serbian villages near Pec. April 2005
YouTube - Kosovo , Serbia: church set in flames by muslim Albanians 04

Now, saying all this, I simply couldn't think of any way of keeping territory of Kosovo in Serbia. There were too many attrocities and crimes on both sides and these two nations simply couldn't live together... You couldn' think of integrating Albanians into Serbian country (they never ever thought of it - see my first post) and getting 50 of them into Serbian parliament... On the other hand, complete scenario, from the beginning was put on the wrong track...

Chuckn49 set one interesting question, though: "I would be interested if someone here could explain just how an independent Kosovo could survive without outside support and why that support should be given, by whom and for how long"

For very long, I believe... Can't say more here on this...

Now, dont' get me wrong here, I'm used to multiethnic surroundings (born in Vojvodina, lived in Slovenia worjking for italian and dutch companies...) and I am mostly ... well, I'd say "anti-ethnic", because this is absolutely no point of interest to me... But, history, human and international rights and laws, and justice are guiding me...

How could someone call one Albanian from Kosovo "freedom fighter", and call Kurd from Turkey or Iraq "terrorist"? It's absolutely the same thing they're fighting for... Kurds have even more rights to do so, IMO - Albanians already have their country, they are spreading around and are occupying other states.
One more thing - Turkish army has right to follow Kurds into Iraq, kill them and burn down their villages (killing the civilians as well), while Serbian army couldn't fight their "domestic" terrorists on its home territory??? International laws? yeah, right... It's NATO country we're talking about, they have all the rights they need...
Now, we might go even further and ask: how you might call Palestinians terrorists, while Israelis are flattening refugee camps to the ground and kill civilians? They just have different means of fight - ones are organised in partisan way and use bombs on busses, while the others have mighty army and use tanks... For me, both are terrorists as long as they kill people in order to reach some goal... But, one is American friend and the other not...

To conclude: I'm not agreeing at all in Kosovo independence (which you had understood already), but can't do a darn thing to stop it... There are far more powerfull countries involved - money makes the world go around... May be Serbs will once have the similar mafia as Albanians and similar ammount of money to offer to certain people... Then they might proclaim "Serbian country of Bavaria" and have US/UK/France behind... Off course Bavarians should agree, since it's normal way of "a present political issue"... No offence Kruska, please - I have used Bavaria just as an example

Now I'm going to move back to the reason I came here in the first place - aircraft modelling... Have an old SMER LeO 451 on the bench, and it hardly waits for me to assembly its landing gear

[Milos Sijacki]

Couldn't agree with you more, but as many politicians have said, Kosovo is and was a UNIQUE situation and this method of solving such a UNIQUE political method will never again be used on any other region. Do you think that Serbia, after 17 EU member states had accepted Kosovo independence, should become part of the EU or should it isolate itself from the rest of Europe and the world?

[Kruska]

Originally Posted by Profa

Not true, sorry... It was first Yugoslavia (and former SHS), and that not completely, that was under Serbian domination. Tito, for start, was Croat (Croat/Slovenian)... And, in Yugoslavia, people didn't vote for communists (at least not open-hearted). They simply came and took the government. But, that's another story...

Then they might proclaim "Serbian country of Bavaria" and have US/UK/France behind... Off course Bavarians should agree, since it's normal way of "a present political issue"... No offence Kruska, please - I have used Bavaria just as an example

Now I'm going to move back to the reason I came here in the first place - aircraft modelling... Have an old SMER LeO 451 on the bench, and it hardly waits for me to assembly its landing gear

No offence taken at all Profa,

Maybe you missed out on two of my statements;

In 1918 the founding of the KINGDOM OF SERBS, CROATS AND SLOVENES (SHS), takes place, since 1929 named YUGOSLAVIA, the rest is occupied by Italy, Bulgaria, Rumania and Hungary, later by Nazi Germany……after WW2 Tito took over…Voted by who?

Who ever said that politicians are “Fair”, “Honest” or “Honorable”? – Not me, that’s for sure. It is very simple; if you are against the US and EU’s “democratic” interests, intentions or rules you are going to get yourself into trouble.

So if the Albanians in Bavaria keep “breeding” (sorry for the word) and then one day want to take over Bavaria, we will retreat into the mountains and start a Guerilla warfare on them (before we will execute all Bavarian Politicians and others who created or caused this situation) – in the meantime we could discuss a thread named; should Bavaria be renamed Albavaria - Due to the world loving Neu-Schwanstein and Crazy King Ludwig II we might receive plenty of ammo and “moral” support by the Free world.

If we can’t win we might pose as Austrians who lost their passport and then take over this country. The Austrians then will move into Slovenia, the Slovenians into Croatia, and the Croats into Serbia and then FINALLY the Serbs can move into Kosovo and the Albanians move back into Albania.

Problem solved

So have fun with your SMER LeO 451, are there any model makers in your country that produce a CH-53 in 1/32 or 1/35? My model dream come true!

Regards
Kruska

[Profa]

Originally Posted by Milos Sijacki

Couldn't agree with you more, but as many politicians have said, Kosovo is and was a UNIQUE situation and this method of solving such a UNIQUE political method will never again be used on any other region. Do you think that Serbia, after 17 EU member states had accepted Kosovo independence, should become part of the EU or should it isolate itself from the rest of Europe and the world?

Well, we'll see about that "uniqueness" when some other nation arises and some other almighty country sees it as its national (or financial or any other) interest... And, as an advice: don't listen to politicians, they are oh-so-used to lie. And "never say never again"...
Accepting Kosovo's independence shouldn't have anything with Serbia becoming part of EU - just to remind you that 17 out of 27 countries recognised Kosovo, and not EU as a political body... As an example - here in my building I have neighbours I could cooperate with, and some I couldn't... That doesn't mean I should close my door and not say even "good morning" to them - I am still (and intend to be) a part of that community. The same way Serbia should join EU and cooperate with ones that showed friendliness or has some interest with. In nowadays world feelings and emotions don't (and shouldn't) play significant role... The other point is whether you'll "meet them at the coffee" or treat them just as a neighbour...