Kosovo Independence-- Good thing or a bad thing?

[stasoid]

Originally Posted by Njaco

While the US continues with its experiment of all people living together, the rest of the world is breaking into little factions. Next it will be blue-eyed people against brown eyed people. I may be off base and like I said I'm not very knowledgable about this subject but I can't help wondering what is the ultimate goal?

I dont think separatist movements would ever succeed with no foreign help from outside. For big countries like US it makes absolute sense to support separatists all over the World weather it's Chechen rebels in Russia, Dalai-Lama in China or so called Kosovo Liberation Army (simply albanian terrorists) in Yugoslavia. By breaking nations into smaller groups you may potentially gain some advantages in global politics in future. That, I think, is the ultimate goal. It's easier to defend your own national interests when you deal with a small country uncapable to conduct independent foreign policy or dependant on somebody's aid. And this is normal and not something new, but in case with Yugoslavia, demonizing Serbs in mass media, bombing Belgrade and supporting albanian mafia in Kosovo looked a little bit unfair.

[Milos Sijacki]

Originally Posted by Profa

Well, we'll see about that "uniqueness" when some other nation arises and some other almighty country sees it as its national (or financial or any other) interest... And, as an advice: don't listen to politicians, they are oh-so-used to lie. And "never say never again"...
Accepting Kosovo's independence shouldn't have anything with Serbia becoming part of EU - just to remind you that 17 out of 27 countries recognised Kosovo, and not EU as a political body... As an example - here in my building I have neighbours I could cooperate with, and some I couldn't... That doesn't mean I should close my door and not say even "good morning" to them - I am still (and intend to be) a part of that community. The same way Serbia should join EU and cooperate with ones that showed friendliness or has some interest with. In nowadays world feelings and emotions don't (and shouldn't) play significant role... The other point is whether you'll "meet them at the coffee" or treat them just as a neighbour...

That is true, yes. About that question whether Serbia should or shouldn't join EU, I'm for it all the way, even into NATO(how likely is that?), just wanted to see your opinion.

[esto]

Originally Posted by Kruska

There are many good examples at present in Europe; The Ukraine broke off from Russia as did Lithuania, Estonia and many others, it was the EU and UN or let’s say the world community that ensured their freedom and hindered Russia from perusing its initial military intervention.

I wouldn't really compare whats going on in the Balkans with the breakup of the Soviet Union. Estonia was a free and independant country prior to WW2, was forced into the USSR, and then regained their freedom when Gorbachev opened the cage door.

Kosovo never was a country before, and is a minority breaking away from a larger entity. Maybe more comparable to the US Civil War? In which case, why didn't Americans support the Southern Confederation breaking away and forming their own country? Wouldn't that be similar to the US supporting Kosovo breaking away from Serbia?

I think Kosovo should have remained a part of Serbia and found a way to resolve their differences. But too late now I guess...

[freebird]

Originally Posted by esto

I wouldn't really compare whats going on in the Balkans with the breakup of the Soviet Union. Estonia was a free and independant country prior to WW2, was forced into the USSR, and then regained their freedom when Gorbachev opened the cage door.

Kosovo never was a country before.

That what I though too, esto.

And the Muslims {Albanians} didn't even live in Kosovo before WWII

[Kruska]

Originally Posted by esto

I wouldn't really compare whats going on in the Balkans with the breakup of the Soviet Union. Estonia was a free and independant country prior to WW2, was forced into the USSR, and then regained their freedom when Gorbachev opened the cage door.

Why not?? Where is the difference??

Esto, I do not want to hurt your feelings or national pride, but when was there ever an independent Estonia except for the after WW1 confusion time (for 23 years) and “founding of new countries” such as Czechoslovakia, Moldavia, and Lithuania etc. etc.

Maybe now the “confusion time” has come in favor for Kosovo Albanians.

Again it depends on how far one wants to go back in history. As far as I know Estonia was just some province never an independent Kingdom, taken over by the Danes and then by the German Knights Order in 1250? After that it was controlled / incorporated into Sweden (1550?) and then Russia (1700).
Regarding race, yes the Estonians are mostly of Finish/Scandinavian origin, such as the present Kosovo is mostly Albanian, and the territory of Kosovo was occupied over the centuries by Albanians – Roman times (Illyrian?), Serbians, Turks for 500 years and now presently by a “MAJORITY of Albanians) not a minority.

Taking this (no of years logic) into account, the Russians or Swedes would have more rights onto Estonia then the Serbs on Kosovo.

Imagine France and Germany would start to quarrel about the Alsace (now France).

Jesus they would have to go back to 700 A.C and then first determine if Karl der Grosse (German name) or Charlemagne (French name) was French or German. So if the people of Alsace would want to break away from France, what could France proof to stop this, based on historical accounts? – Nothing -, it would become an endless story.

Now the reason why the “Alsace Issue” does not exist anymore is because Germany lost WW2, (such as Serbia lost its war against the EU and the US) both countries Germany and France are now EU members and the people of Alsace do not have any economical problems and they are not harassed or treated as second class citizens by France.

Germany had no say at all, after ww1 and ww2, and neither does Serbia now, so it is the “Victors” who decide – which is mostly not based on right or wrong – and the Victors at present is not Serbia.

Regards
Kruska

[Haztoys]

The more I read this thread the more confused I get ...And the more "I" see no real way to fix it ... Who ever "wins" (wrong word to use...sorry) is going to have to deal with the losing side..

Good info and hats off to you all for not turning the tread into a war of its own..

Theres such a long time line in that part of the world to say who owns the land ..Were do you start...

[esto]

Originally Posted by Kruska

when was there ever an independent Estonia except for the after WW1 confusion time (for 23 years) and “founding of new countries” such as Czechoslovakia, Moldavia, and Lithuania etc. etc.

I guess the magic question is when is it OK for a peoples to declare themselves a country and when is it not? In the cases you mentioned after WW1, I'd say alot of these new countries were a "long time coming" and deserved their independance. Estonia, for example, was always slaves (Germans, Swedes, Russians) but yet never had any real relation to them other than being their slaves. Estonians have always held their own language, customs, etc. thruought hundreds of years, and living in the places their anscestors had lived for hundreds of years before them.

I'm by no means an expert on the long and confused history of Kosovo, but it seems to be a different story there. There's seems to be no real "birth-right" by the Kosovo Albanians to a homeland. I think that's the main difference.

...plus with Kosovo, the world is split on recognizing them as a country, because of the prescedence it sets ie: when can a minority break off and declare independance?. When the post WW1 countries emerged, there was no massive objections, and it was generally accepted that these "new" countries had in fact deserved it for a long time.

[Milos Sijacki]

If we are talking about Albanians as direct descendents of Illyrian tribes, then we must take into the account that they are from the Albanoi tribe which lived on the territory of the today modern Albania, so they already have a land on their traditional territory.

[Kruska]

Originally Posted by esto

I guess the magic question is when is it OK for a peoples to declare themselves a country and when is it not?

When the post WW1 countries emerged, there was no massive objections, and it was generally accepted that these "new" countries had in fact deserved it for a long time.

Hello esto,

There couldn’t have been any massive objections since Austria and Germany had no say, (it was their former territory) and Russia was in no position (such as in 1989) to do anything about or against it.

Again, maybe I could be wrong??? The present MAJORITY in Kosovo are ALBANIANS, if by birth or by “loosing their Yugoslav passports”

The latter possibility would need to be proofed by Serbia; if they can’t well then unfortunately an independent Kosovo might arise as did Estonia.

Regards
Kruska

[Profa]

Oh, Christ, people, I thought you were to leave this discussion long ago... C'mon, get back to modelling and discuss history and alike

Originally Posted by Kruska

Again, maybe I could be wrong??? The present MAJORITY in Kosovo are ALBANIANS, if by birth or by “loosing their Yugoslav passports”

The latter possibility would need to be proofed by Serbia; if they can’t well then unfortunately an independent Kosovo might arise as did Estonia.

Serbia tried to prove this, but all western powers said "it's current situation, don't point fingers to historical maps" (let me quote you) - it was not enough and didn't want to listen... On the other hand, Albanians, if they were Yugoslav/Serbian citizens, could just show their IDs and passports and say "we're misstreated minority here in Serbia, come help us", but... I'd be first to give them hand, as well as many of my compatriots. The point is they weren't... From the start they were fighting for just one thing - separation of Kosovo!
Therefore westerns just went on using their "right of a stronger", bombed Serbia on false premisses (and helped Albanians) and now Serbia could complain as long as it wants...

What else should Serbia prove - that Kosovo is (or was???) its territory???
Could you please prove that Bavaria is part of Germany? How? By pointing to the map? Or by counting its citizens with german IDs and passports? And what with those who "lost" their passport (or never had asked for it)? They' re free to ask for their part of Bavaria to become their separate homeland?
I'm crossing fingers for something like a dozen of my friends in Munchen, Regensburg, Nurnberg, and other thousands of our compatriots living there, to "give Bavarian birth-right" to their children so once they'd be free to ask for that territory and be helped by some stronger power
Off course this was a joke, I'm against it, but that's the way you look at things

Another issue - Don't compare Kosovo and Estonia, these are two absolutely different situations - here in present terms you might compare Slovenia or Croatia and Estonia, but Kosovo is something else...

[Njaco]

Profa puts it in perspective!

By breaking nations into smaller groups you may potentially gain some advantages in global politics in future. That, I think, is the ultimate goal.

I am very sure that regardless of Bush, any European country that would possess the might or power of the US would be far more aggressive, unforgiving and dominant against others then the US has been since WW2.

And I'm sure that is the way the US would like it. If you're the only one with the big guns, you are the Superpower. Keep everybody else small.

But that is where at times the confusion comes in because politicians here in the US, ever since Clinton, have wanted a global economy and a global world union. It contradicts each other, these two purposes.

[Profa]

Originally Posted by Njaco

And I'm sure that is the way the US would like it. If you're the only one with the big guns, you are the Superpower. Keep everybody else small.

But that is where at times the confusion comes in because politicians here in the US, ever since Clinton, have wanted a global economy and a global world union. It contradicts each other, these two purposes.

Not entirely contradicting - you have one leader in the world and all the others are just head-wobblers (UK, France, Germany, Italy...). Who are mortal enemies and "dangerous" countries? - those who don't agree with US and don't accept its "leading role" or the others that just have great gas reserves (Iraq, Iran, Syria...) so they deserve to be enemies and countries in "desperate need of help in establishing (US-governed) democracy"...

[Milos Sijacki]

Profa, once again you speak with the voice of reason.

[Kruska]

Originally Posted by Profa;

Therefore westerns just went on using their "right of a stronger", bombed Serbia on false premisses (and helped Albanians) and now Serbia could complain as long as it wants...

[B

The NATO already bombed Serbia in 1995 after the Serbs hat attacked the UN zones of Srebrenica und Zepa[/b]

What else should Serbia prove - that Kosovo is (or was???) its territory???

No need, the majority in Kosovo are Albanians not Serbs

Could you please prove that Bavaria is part of Germany? How?

No need, luckily everybody knows this

I'm crossing fingers for something like a dozen of my friends in Munchen, Regensburg, Nurnberg, and other thousands of our compatriots living there, to "give Bavarian birth-right" to their children so once they'd be free to ask for that territory and be helped by some stronger power

Don't worry, any foreigner born in Germany/Bavaria has to apply for citizenship - it is not automatically given as in the USA

Another issue - Don't compare Kosovo and Estonia, these are two absolutely different situations - here in present terms you might compare Slovenia or Croatia and Estonia, but Kosovo is something else...

No you are very wrong, as I mentioned earlier there was never an Estonia before 1918, but the Victory powers of WW1 liked the idea - and the Russians had a little Lenin problem and as such could not do anything against it. Unlike Estonia, Kosovo was given the status of an autonomous region by Tito in 1974 and as such Kosovo had the same legal status as Croatia, Slovenia, etc.etc. And such as Croatia, Slovenia ...... have decided to leave the Republic of Yugoslavia, Kosovo can do just the same

As I said earlier Profa, I am not in favor for an independent Kosovo, but on the otherhand Belgrade has to face an Albanian Majority in a region that reflects it "right" for seperation based on a given autonomous status by old friend Tito in 1974 - regardless of Belgrade revoking this in 1991?

Regards
Kruska

[Profa]

Originally Posted by Kruska

The NATO already bombed Serbia in 1995 after the Serbs hat attacked the UN zones of Srebrenica und Zepa

Not true - NATO had bombed Serbs IN Bosnia (west of river Drina, which is natural border between Bosnia and Serbia), and not the Serbian territory (east of Drina).

Originally Posted by Kruska

What else should Serbia prove - that Kosovo is (or was???) its territory???

No need, the majority in Kosovo are Albanians not Serbs

Could you please prove that Bavaria is part of Germany? How?

No need, luckily everybody knows this

Everybody knows Kosovo is the part of Serbia, but no one cares less... What are we talking about - national majorities in some parts of any country or political borders? By your stating every minority in some part of any country could proclaim independence in the region where they have local majority (Hungarians in Slovakia and Romania, Romanians in Hungary, Germans, French and Italian in Switzerland, Austrians in Italy, Slovenians in Austria and Italy and so on and so forth...)
Are we talking international laws and borders or what???

Originally Posted by Kruska

Another issue - Don't compare Kosovo and Estonia, these are two absolutely different situations - here in present terms you might compare Slovenia or Croatia and Estonia, but Kosovo is something else...

No you are very wrong, as I mentioned earlier there was never an Estonia before 1918, but the Victory powers of WW1 liked the idea - and the Russians had a little Lenin problem and as such could not do anything against it. Unlike Estonia, Kosovo was given the status of an autonomous region by Tito in 1974 and as such Kosovo had the same legal status as Croatia, Slovenia, etc.etc. And such as Croatia, Slovenia ...... have decided to leave the Republic of Yugoslavia, Kosovo can do just the same

Not true - after the 1974. SFRY consitution Kosovo was autonomous region in Serbia, as well as Vojvodina. Therefore not the same as CRO and SLO etc which were republics, but THE PART of republic of Serbia... Speaking of the same consitution, it delivered another nation to the world - while everywhere muslims are a religious entity, in Bosnia it was proclaimed a nation!!! Why, when those are Serbs and Croats who accepted muslim religion while occupied by the Turks? Now we're going off-topic... By the same constitution, other republics (SLO, CRO...) had the right to separate ONLY IF all the other republics do agree - which wasn't the situation in '91, but that's another story... Again, Kosovo WAS NOT a republic, it was autonomous region... That's why Albanians asked for Kosovo to become a republic in the first place since 1981... 1981??? But that's 25 years before all the hell broke loose on Kosovo??? Yep, that's right - all the story behind Kosovo is Albanians' intention to separate from Serbia. Now we'll see where this story is going to end, since everybody knows about the Albanian riots in Macedonia 2000/2001. But, wait... Milosevic wasn't in Macedonia at that time... Then why the riots? Oops, may be, just may be, they'd like to take some part of Macedonia as well? They have majority in western Macedonia, so the world should let them do it, right? Who's next, north-western Greece or southern Montenegro? Nah, Greece - no chance, it's NATO and EU...