Kosovo Independence-- Good thing or a bad thing?

[freebird]

Originally Posted by Milos Sijacki

I think you all saw a map that posted on a prevoius page. This map shows all the churches and monasteries that existed and have existed on Kosovo. Some were destroyed by Turks during their rule, and some by Albanians or simply by the effects of time during communist regime.

Milos do you agree with FlyboyJ's post? Did Tito just let most of the Albanians walk in? Were there any border controls in Kosovo?

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

From what I understand ethnic Albanians walked into Kosovo after WW2 and Tito just turned a blind eye to this - perhaps because he saw a source of cheap labor.

[Milos Sijacki]

Yes I do. How did it all exactly happen I don't know. Tito did let them settle down in Kosovo, when they ran away from Albania, because it was too dreadful to live in Albania in those times.

[freebird]

Did they actually become Yugoslav citizens? Or did they just live there "illegal" like the Mexicans in the USA?

[Milos Sijacki]

That I don't know. I didn't even know about the Kosovo crisis until the 1999 bombing. I think some did and some didn't but that will never be found out.

[Haztoys]

Been doing alittle work on that part of the world ...Theres a mess of different groups wanting to run that area of the world ...I had no clue ..Its hard anuff to get two groups to see eye to eye ...Let alone that many...

[Milos Sijacki]

That's what you get when your country stands on the crossroads of the world.

It seems that pro-EU parties have won the elections, but those are just preliminary results.

[Kruska]

Hello Milos Sijacki,

Kosovo Independence-- Good thing or a bad thing? – I think it has no benefits for both sides, so it’s a bad thing.

But why is it so difficult for the Serbs to restrain themselves from being the “only” legal representative body in former Yugoslavia? It is exactly this attitude “protectionism and favoring” mostly by and for Serbs of their own political and economical interests that made this whole civilwar and splitup happen.

If I would have been a Croatian, Slovenian, Bosnian or whatever I certainly would as well have opposed Serbian domination. Instead of forwarding common and equal status and goals the Serbs forwarded tanks and thought that gunning down any opposition to their master attitude would solve the problem, and the worst part is that they still think and act in that manner (at least the majority of their politicians).

Jesus, Belgrade is just 6-7 hours drive away from Germany, haven’t the Serbs noticed how Europe has developed?

Instead of working out a plan for a fruitful coexistence, Belgrade points at maps from the 16th century or even before that.

What besides economic setbacks and isolation can the Serbs hope to gain by the present display of their political and mental position? – nothing of benefit.

Regards
Kruska

[Milos Sijacki]

I couldn't agree with you more, Kruska. I am one of those who don't look so much in the past. I look into the future and I don't support those politicians who use past in order to win power.

[Kruska]

Hello Milos Sijacki,

I am very happy to hear that, so what do you think are the chances of “moderate” or open-minded Serbs to get a voice or vote into the present government or peoples minds?

Regards
Kruska

[Milos Sijacki]

People of Serbia are pretty fed up with all of that. There is a strong pro-EU, but there is also anti-EU presence because of the 17 EU nations that recognised Kosovo independence. I'm sure that those who are pro-EU will be able to achieve success. Like I say, Kosovo was lost to us the moment foreign troops entered it and set their bases up there.

[freebird]

Kruska it seems that most here favor Kosovo over Serbia, but the question is legitimate, how much rights do recent immigrants {the Muslim Albanians} have in a {long established} country {Serbia}

If it was your country would you be willing to give away historical German land so easily?

Originally Posted by Kruska

Hello Milos Sijacki,

Kosovo Independence-- Good thing or a bad thing? – I think it has no benefits for both sides, so it’s a bad thing.

But why is it so difficult for the Germans to restrain themselves from being the “only” legal representative body in former Bavaria? It is exactly this attitude “protectionism and favoring” mostly by and for Germans of their own political and economical interests that made this whole civilwar and splitup happen.

If I would have been a Turk, Tunisian, Morroccan or whatever living in Bavaria I certainly would as well have opposed German-speaking domination.

Or Perhaps

But why is it so difficult for the Americans to restrain themselves from being the “only” legal representative body in the former state of Texas? It is exactly this attitude “protectionism and favoring” mostly by and for Americans of their own political and economical interests that made this whole civilwar and splitup happen.

If I would have been a Mexican, Salvadoran, Cuban or whatever living in the former Texas I certainly would as well have opposed English-speaking domination.

Regards
Kruska

Just a thought...

[Kruska]

Hello freebird,

Well Bavaria was never historical German land. It was fully independent/ partially independent from the Roman times till 1933 when Hitler abolished the former states - and occupied some (in his opinion)"German Provinces" such as Austria and Sudeten for a "greater Germany". (Grossdeutschland).

Today's Bavaria is a Free State (incorporates certain specific rights for Bavaria, such as Education or Police and Laws.) within the German Federation; as such there is no “domination” of Germans in Bavaria. Being a proud Bavarian myself I do resent certain German values or behavior, but I would oppose independence since it wouldn’t bring any benefit for both. So since the German government formerly in Bonn now Berlin does not oppress Bavarians or hinder them to live their own tradition, why should the Bavarians start a civil war for independence or a better living?

As for Turkish or foreigners in general, usually they have a dual citizenship, if not they are still allowed to participate in regional elections within their registered community. Unlike catholic churches which are not allowed to be erected in many Muslim countries, Bavaria or Germany do allow the erection of Muslim mosques.
Any legal foreigner or “German” in Bavaria has the same legal rights and legal obligations as a Bavarian himself, so why should they oppose German or Bavarian presence?

Tito after WW2 never asked Bosnia, Croatia, Slovenia, etc.etc if they wanted to join into a common state such as Yugoslavia, neither did the US occupation forces or the “new” German government ask the Bavarian people if they wanted to join a common state such as West-Germany in 1949. However unlike Yugoslavia everyone in West-Germany was given the same rights and nobody oppressed anyone.

So what is your point? if I may ask

As for the native population in Canada or the USA, who might be oppressed by the “former settlers and colonialist “I would understand if they would even resort to force in order to obtain their freedom or equal rights such as the natives did in Rhodesia or South Africa.

Regards
Kruska

[freebird]

Originally Posted by Kruska

So what is your point? if I may ask

Regards
Kruska:

I only picked Bavaria as an example, it could be Hanover or Saxony instead...

I guess my point would be that if the Turkish/Muslim immigrants became a majority in some part of Germany, would the German government allow them to break away and become a separate country - if 51% of the people voted for it? I think not....

{BTW I thought Bavaria was considered part of Germany since 1870?}

Just as there is no way the US government would let Texas break away even if the majority of people there {Mexican immigrants} voted for it.


And I agree with you that the Serbian government behaved very badly, but they still do have some rights to Kosovo, even if the majority there is now ethnic Albanian.

As for the native population in Canada or the USA, who might be oppressed by the “former settlers and colonialist “I would understand if they would even resort to force in order to obtain their freedom or equal rights such as the natives did in Rhodesia or South Africa.

Actually the native Mohawk population in Oka {Kanawake} declared sovereignty from Canada. The government sent the army in....

Oka Crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney was reluctant, but had no choice as it was {premier of Quebec's} Robert Bourassa's right under the act to employ the military when required to maintain law and order. The Chief of the Defence Staff, General John de Chastelain accordingly placed Quebec-based troops in support of the provincial authorities. Some 2,500 regular and reserve troops from the 34 and 35 Canadian Brigade Groups and 5 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group were put on notice and, on the morning of 20 August, 33 troops of the Quebec-based Royal 22 Régiment, the "Van Doos", took three barricades and arrived at the final blockade leading to the disputed area. Additional troops and mechanized equipment mobilized at staging areas around Montreal while CF-16 Freedom Fighter reconnaissance aircraft staged air photo missions over Mohawk territory to gather intelligence. Despite high tensions between military and native forces, no shots were exchanged.

The Oka Crisis lasted seventy-eight days and resulted in the death of SQ Corporal Marcel Lemay. Two other deaths have also been indirectly attributed to the crisis: Joe Armstrong, a seventy-one-year-old World War II veteran who died of a stress-induced heart attack after a confrontation with a group of non-native protestors; and an elderly non-native man who died after being exposed to tear gas on July 11.

[Kruska]

Hello freebird,

There are many good examples at present in Europe; The Ukraine broke off from Russia as did Lithuania, Estonia and many others, it was the EU and UN or let’s say the world community that ensured their freedom and hindered Russia from perusing its initial military intervention.

Today’s IRA is still claiming independence from the British, and the ETA in Spain is still carrying on its armed resistance or better (terrorist’s acts) against Madrid so did the South Tirol/Italy issue also end in terrorists acts. For some reason the world community does not seem to be in support for the IRA’s, ETA’s and Tirol’s cause. As for South Tirol even if they would have a public poll it wouldn’t change much since Rom has send vast numbers of Italian’s to this province to hinder this probability.

Former Czechoslovakia was better in the way of peacefully settling their division into Czech Republic and Slovakia even though it is not to anyone’s benefit – at least I think so, maybe the Slovaks are still happy about it.

As for Kosovo it is the same legal dispute, were as Belgrade rejects any independence or interference from outside. Since Belgrade however has so openly shown its racial NAZI policies in Bosnia, Croatia etc. it can’t expect any support or sympathy (besides Russia and maybe China) from the leaders of the “Democratic Alliance”.

The US and the UK attacked Iraq for a second time and destroyed its union that was kept (controlled) by Saddam and his political party, - look at this place now – split up into dozens of factions and territories. First it was justified with “weapons of mass destruction” and now with bringing democracy to the former oppressed Iraq people.

Who ever said that politicians are “Fair”, “Honest” or “Honorable”? – Not me, that’s for sure.

It is very simple; if you are against the US and EU’s “democratic” interests, intentions or rules you are going to get yourself into trouble.

So please don't upset the US and EU democratic feelings by ignoring or even continuing to use military force against the Mohawk nation. You should name them terrorists straight away that will help you and try to find some Al Qaida conections to them.

I heard that Mr. Fahrenheit 911 is going to show up a new sequel on Bush in 6-8 month, I wouldn't want to miss that one

BTW, Bavaria lost the war against Prussia in 1866 (the Austria/Bavaria against Prussia war) and signed the “Schutz und Trutzbuendnis” –“Protection and Support accord”, Therefore Bavaria joined the Deutsche Reich in 1871 but remained an independent Kingdom by agreeing to place its Army under Prussian Command in the event of a war.

Regards
Kruska

[Profa]

Let me join this topic for a while and try to explain some things, because I see Milos doesn't know too much about it...
I wont' go too far into history, just stick to the last century.
Hmmm, first a little historical background...
Kosovo is, as you (might or might not) know "cradle" of Serbian culture. The large numer of churches and monasteries speaks for itself. There was first serbian capital (city of Nerodimlje).
It was occupied by Turks for some 500yrs, and was liberated in 1st Balcan war (1912). During turkish occupation some Albanians moved there as they were part of occupying troops. Serbs, on the other hands, hadn't any rights and were treated almost as slaves (as other non-muslim nations in other turk-occupied territories)...
After 1912 Serbs got their rights back, which Albanians didn't like, off course. But, they stayed unlike the Turks which mostly withdrew back to their homeland.
Now, let's move to WWII... Yugoslavia was divided between Germans, Italians Hungarians and Bulgarians... Kosovo was under italian rule, and albanians were part of it... Serbs were at most part expelled to Serbia or killed, and just a small percent survived on their territory.

Now, for some quotes:
freebird Did Tito just let most of the Albanians walk in? Were there any border controls in Kosovo?
Milos Sijacki Yes I do. How did it all exactly happen I don't know. Tito did let them settle down in Kosovo, when they ran away from Albania, because it was too dreadful to live in Albania in those times.
freebird Did they actually become Yugoslav citizens? Or did they just live there "illegal" like the Mexicans in the USA?

After the WWII, as you know, this region was rulled by communists. There were plans to form some sort of mini international union between Albania, Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary. Tito was very close friend with albanian leader Enver Hoja. At this time expelled Serbs were forbidden to return to their property, while border between Albania and Yugoslavia was one-way open for everybody from Albania to move at their wish, and these kept their albanian citizenship...

To shorten story a little... Albanians won by numbers - they had 9-12 children, while Serbs had 1-2. In 60's/70's lots of Serbs sold their property to Albanians, or were simply expelled (under the "blind-eyed authorities") to move to central Serbia. But, it wasn't until 1981 that we have heard for the first time for the slogan "Kosovo republic". Yugoslav army made decisive move and drew some tanks to the streets and everything went quiet again, but the fire was started...
Albanians had completely parallel political and economical system - schools and universities as well, and never had accepted yugoslav (less the serbian) rule. Still, not a single yugoslav citizen there...

When Yugoslavia started its breaking apart, they had seen their chance in weakened, slow and bad organised serbian army and made their final move in organising their "army"...
It is important to mention that there were no serbian attrocities and crimes until 1998/1999, when Milosevic made cardinal mistake...

I believe you all know what happened in Macedonia in 2000/2001? Albanians had made their move as well... I travelled through that region last year and can tell you that there are no Macedonian flags - only Albanian and USA (I wonder why...???) You might again expect the same scenario there...

Now, I'd like you to understand that I'm not past-oriented person - I'd like this whole region to forget the past and to move forward, towards EU, but there are some facts you simply couldn't oversee or forget...

I'm at your dispose for any question or comment

I'll join others in the simple question: "would your country let any ethnic minority proclaim its indepedence and expell country's majority?"
I'd like to see USA in the case of Mexicans, Germany (and other european countries) vs Turks, France vs. Algerians etc...