Need to fix democratic system of the Philippines

[pian]

The main problem is that we have a very illegitimate democratic system. Our voters elect only those people who are popular and not if they are capable. The big dilemma if GMA is ousted, the VP will take over who was elected PURELY because he’s popular with the masses, and not because he’s capable to lead the nation. Our economy has never grown this much, I don’t want to take the chance by entrusting it to someone solely popular with the masses.
To prevent this transfer, no matter how believable Lozada initially is, his credibility is now being questioned. He admitted that a certain level of corruption is acceptable to him. Questions have arisen whether he was kidnapped, because his celphone was not confiscated, he dined in Outback restaurant, and he was able to go to the place he wanted to go all along, that is, La Salle Greenhills. I even read he committed a sin of omission regarding his consultation with the wife of Sen. Joker Arroyo. He didn’t correct the impression in which it appeared the wife invited him to her house to urge him not to testify, when the fact of the matter is (based on what I read) Lozada was the one who contacted the wife around September before Joey de Venecia testified, and he was crying and that he doesn’t want to testify. So the wife invited him to her house, and told him she couldn’t lawyer for him due to conflict of interest since her husband is a Senator, while he was then president of Philforest. She advised him then, since he was so distressed, that he doesn’t have to testify if he didn’t want to. Since this was one of those ordinary free consultations, she didn’t bother to tell Joker about it. So Joker was surprised when his wife was mentioned.
Jun Lozada is no Clarissa Ocampo at all.

[Njaco]

Pian, it sounds like the voting nightmare everyone faces. I'm not knowledgable about the Phillippines but it sounds like the US to a degree. We have canidates who get on board with good looks and charm (currently Olabama), others with a history of corruption (The Witch) and others who distance themselves from the party to play politics (McCain).

My belief is you will never change that. In the US I would like to see the Electorial College abolished. Is that the same in the islands?

[Konigstiger205]

Everywhere is the same problem and from two or more evils we have to chose the lesser one...

[Emac44]

Having been to the Philippines during their last Presidental Election. It left a lot to be desired with Political Killings Bombings and just outright Skulduggery. I was in Manila last May 2007 and I had an indepth converstaion with our tour guide who informed me of the connections between the Marcos Family Arroyo Family and Aquino Family and the corrupt Estrada Govt. It wasn't so much that you could tell the Political Difference but who was paying of whom when and where and who had family connections with who and where. It was also amazing that Imelda Marcos still had political clout and was occupying one of the whole floors of one of the International Hotel in Makati Manila City. One just has to open up the Sun Newspaper to see who was killed recently for Political Gain. Just recently a Makati Hotel was invaded by supporters of Estrada and the Military had to dig them out of the Lobby of one of the Philippine International Hotels in Makati after escaping from a Court Room where they were being charged with Corruption. But the Sun Newspaper carries constantly stories about Journalists Lawyers Local Government Officials and Political Opponents to the Government who have been murdered or assasinated and or Kidnapped for various reasons. But the common theme is that they exposed or opposed corruption every where in Philippine Government Processes. During the Marcos Regime this was common. And one would think even after Post Marcos this would not occur as every President from Corrie Aquino to Gloria Arroyo has promised to clean up Mismanagement of Government and Corruption since Marcos Regime. It is easier said then done as corruption exsists from the Local Government all the way to the Philippine Presidental Palace.

I was amazed that one of the Local Magistrates (Judges) would for a price rush through some legal matters for my wife and myself on Legal Family Matters. For 50,000 Philippine Pesos the Judge would approve Custodial Orders in a family matter. I turned down the Judge asking me to bribe him. As it was nothing more than a BRIBE but sugar coated in such a way that as termed as me giving the Judge a GIFT. My wife and I managed another route to gain Custodial Orders. It may have taken extra time but it was done legally without having to resort to Gift Giving (Bribery). But it didn't surprise me why the Judge wanted to be bribed as my wife's family explained to me that RENT A MOB Protestors for 50 PHP each could be arranged by any Government or Corrupted Politicans or some one with a Political Axe to grind. But the amazing thing I found with most Pinoys and Pinas was that they excepted this as every day occurences. Like crossing the street in Manila. Every one seemed to have excepted Corruption as the norm in Government. Which I must say doesn't lessen my admiration or liking for the every day citizen of the Philippines. The Pinas and Pinoys must have the utmost in patience in dealing with corruption far more than I do. The thing is with the Philippines being a 3rd World Country it will remain a 3rd World Country whilst Corruption exsists in my opinion. This is a real shame as the Philippinos are hard working individuals and are family orientated to the extreme in my opinion. I have nothing but admiration for the Pinoys and Pinas of the Philippines but I have to say I am not that impressed with Corruption in their Government

[Njaco]

Pian, if what you and Emac say is true, be careful. It appears that every concerned citizen is eventually wiped out. Take care.

[syscom3]

All of the asian countries are corrupt to the core.

[freebird]

Originally Posted by syscom3

All of the asian countries are corrupt to the core.

Syscom that statement is such a stereotype for all Asian people!

{And it's pretty much the truth} Oops....

[Emac44]

No Njaco. That won't be the case for me. But Sys is correct most Asian Countries without exception have varies forms of Corruption from Governmental to Public

[Njaco]

After what I've seen of the elections today, I think Russia is along the same lines.

[pian]

Originally Posted by syscom3

All of the asian countries are corrupt to the core.

Originally Posted by freebird

Syscom that statement is such a stereotype for all Asian people!

{And it's pretty much the truth} Oops....

Originally Posted by Emac44

No Njaco. That won't be the case for me. But Sys is correct most Asian Countries without exception have varies forms of Corruption from Governmental to Public

That’s stereotyping Asian countries. ALL countries, even 1st World countries, suffer from this corruption plague. All countries have laws against stealing. Only the levels differ depending on the state of the economy. I read said ‘It’s not possible to stay clean in politics no matter how much you want to stay clean’ as admitted by former US President Truman though I don’t believe in this with the law on term limits. All countries have politicians if you subscribe to the saying.

[pian]

Originally Posted by Njaco

Pian, it sounds like the voting nightmare everyone faces. I'm not knowledgable about the Phillippines but it sounds like the US to a degree. We have canidates who get on board with good looks and charm (currently Olabama), others with a history of corruption (The Witch) and others who distance themselves from the party to play politics (McCain).

My belief is you will never change that. In the US I would like to see the Electorial College abolished. Is that the same in the islands?

Although Obama is a popular choice of the youth, he gained his popularity with his eloquence. People who voted for him believed that he can deliver his promises. In the Philippines it’s a different story. Celebrities/movie stars have greater chances of being voted simply because they’re popular with the masses. They don’t need to prove anything or make speeches. That’s what I meant when I say our democratic system is illegitimate.
No we don’t have an electoral college and I don’t likewise like the idea.

[pian]

Originally Posted by Emac44

Having been to the Philippines during their last Presidental Election. It left a lot to be desired with Political Killings Bombings and just outright Skulduggery. I was in Manila last May 2007 and I had an indepth converstaion with our tour guide who informed me of the connections between the Marcos Family Arroyo Family and Aquino Family and the corrupt Estrada Govt. It wasn't so much that you could tell the Political Difference but who was paying of whom when and where and who had family connections with who and where. It was also amazing that Imelda Marcos still had political clout and was occupying one of the whole floors of one of the International Hotel in Makati Manila City. One just has to open up the Sun Newspaper to see who was killed recently for Political Gain. Just recently a Makati Hotel was invaded by supporters of Estrada and the Military had to dig them out of the Lobby of one of the Philippine International Hotels in Makati after escaping from a Court Room where they were being charged with Corruption. But the Sun Newspaper carries constantly stories about Journalists Lawyers Local Government Officials and Political Opponents to the Government who have been murdered or assasinated and or Kidnapped for various reasons. But the common theme is that they exposed or opposed corruption every where in Philippine Government Processes. During the Marcos Regime this was common. And one would think even after Post Marcos this would not occur as every President from Corrie Aquino to Gloria Arroyo has promised to clean up Mismanagement of Government and Corruption since Marcos Regime. It is easier said then done as corruption exsists from the Local Government all the way to the Philippine Presidental Palace.

I was amazed that one of the Local Magistrates (Judges) would for a price rush through some legal matters for my wife and myself on Legal Family Matters. For 50,000 Philippine Pesos the Judge would approve Custodial Orders in a family matter. I turned down the Judge asking me to bribe him. As it was nothing more than a BRIBE but sugar coated in such a way that as termed as me giving the Judge a GIFT. My wife and I managed another route to gain Custodial Orders. It may have taken extra time but it was done legally without having to resort to Gift Giving (Bribery). But it didn't surprise me why the Judge wanted to be bribed as my wife's family explained to me that RENT A MOB Protestors for 50 PHP each could be arranged by any Government or Corrupted Politicans or some one with a Political Axe to grind. But the amazing thing I found with most Pinoys and Pinas was that they excepted this as every day occurences. Like crossing the street in Manila. Every one seemed to have excepted Corruption as the norm in Government. Which I must say doesn't lessen my admiration or liking for the every day citizen of the Philippines. The Pinas and Pinoys must have the utmost in patience in dealing with corruption far more than I do. The thing is with the Philippines being a 3rd World Country it will remain a 3rd World Country whilst Corruption exsists in my opinion. This is a real shame as the Philippinos are hard working individuals and are family orientated to the extreme in my opinion. I have nothing but admiration for the Pinoys and Pinas of the Philippines but I have to say I am not that impressed with Corruption in their Government

There’s corruption in the Phil. Govt alright. But what I’m saying is that if they want to effectively deal with the corruption issue without risking the economy, I feel the need to minimize the risk first. Because right now, in our democratic system, only the popular are voted by the masses (which comprise the majority of our electorate). They don’t assess the capacity of the person to run the country at all. They don’t care about issues/platforms of the candidates. They don’t watch debates at all.
But I see hope that there are good people willing to become public servants, but are not given chances to serve simply because they’re so unknown. Their only exposure then were the debates not watched by the majority of the people.

[Emac44]

Originally Posted by pian

That’s stereotyping Asian countries. ALL countries, even 1st World countries, suffer from this corruption plague. All countries have laws against stealing. Only the levels differ depending on the state of the economy. I read said ‘It’s not possible to stay clean in politics no matter how much you want to stay clean’ as admitted by former US President Truman though I don’t believe in this with the law on term limits. All countries have politicians if you subscribe to the saying.

Agreed Pian but as you well know it isn't sterotyping but a common well known fact of life in 3rd World Nations. Even Asian 3rd World Nations. Excuse me but I never said that corruption doesn't occur in 1st World Nations or Western Nations for it certainly does occur. Now if I recall it was yourself in this post who has claimed problems with democratic process in the Philippines. And you are tying this up with Politicans whom seem to be elected by being widely popular. For example Estrada being a former movie actor but corrupt and useless as a President-Politican for the people of the Philippines

[pian]

I’ve posted this on various websites since that’s how politics works in our country. It’s propaganda or popularity contest. It’s making images and I want to counter this image. They’re making it appear that Jun Lozada, the current star witness of this corruption scandal, is a saint. This transcript should prove otherwise.
------------------------------------------------------------
Below is a transcript of a supposedly wiretapped conversation between Joey and Jun I got from a website. Judge for yourself if Jun Lozada is indeed deserving to be treated a hero, but of course after ascertaining if this is genuine.
usapang udifuta
________________________________________
TRACK 3...

Patriots for Truth

Joey (allegedly, Joey de Venecia): Hey Jun.
Jun (allegedly, Jun Lozada): Hey Joey.
Joey: Jun, can you hear me?
Jun: Yeah. Go ahead.
Joey: Yeah, where are you to put Chair (Abalos)?
Jun: Ang formula ko doon is kuha ako ng points dun sa 130.
Joey: Uh-huh…
Jun: Di ba? Kasi saan ko pa kukunin di ba? (laughs) Itong mga …
Joey: Kaya lang pare, we need to get some… at least from… something from them, di ba?
Jun: Yeah.. from both sides. P*t@ng!na…
Joey: Pare.. start from the thing.. Because he’s the gatekeeper of the votes. P*ta. I can understand, but not that amount.
Jun: Oh yeah. that’s too big, right. That’s too big.
Joey: Pare, let’s develop a plan to talk to him.
Jun: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So…
Joey: And you know what he told me, between you and I. When we were in Hong Kong… in Shenzen. Don’t quote me ha. Sabi niya kasi, marami akong…... Tinanong ko bakit ba ang laki-laki? Singkwenta.. Sabi niya marami ako kelangan bigyan. Pati yung NEDA. He said the word NEDA ha. P*t@ngina. For your information pare.
Jun: Information? I would understand that… He’d like to look at…
Joey: Maybe, wait, you can quote me and say, sabi ni Joey meron daw… sabi mo sa kanya may NEDA dun. (laughs) Di ba? He told me pare. (laughs)
Jun: Sige, sige…
Joey: P*t@ng!na, baka magwala na naman yung… (laughs)
Jun: For some reason, I have this chemistry with him. Sabi ko Chair… In fact, sabi niya, Jun, ikaw na mag-referee bukas ha. Sabi niya, I want you to be there. Ikaw na mag-referee, ikaw na magsabi kung papaano. Sige po Sir, ako na ang mag-aano sa ano… (laughs)
Joey: Well anyway, so that’s where I’m looking at right now. .. ought to get you.. And then, uh, think of a strategy for Ben (Abalos?), and if you need me to back you up, I’ll be there.
Jun: Hey Joey, regarding this Chinese embassy thing. I think I struck a motherload no? I’ll put them in Roxas Boulevard. P*t@ng!na, di ba?
Joey: In the Reformation? (Reclamation)
Jun: No, p*t@ng!na, that’s not prime. We’ll put them in the CCP complex.
Joey: Yup, got it.
Jun: P*t@ng!na. Yeah, that’s, wala.. I can ??? that ??? agreement. (I can swing that gddam deal pare)
Joey: You mean, owned by the Central Bank?
Jun: Yeah! Can you imagine? P*t@ng!na, same stature as the American embassy, better pa, di ba? The Japanese Embassy is in Roxas Boulevard. The American embassy is there. So p*ta, I just arrived that we put the Chinese embassy right in the midst of it all, di ba? Joey: Yes, yes, of course. That’s ??? to hear. That’s foresight. (That’s perfect)
Jun: … don’t mention my name. I think he knows me well.
Joey: Gaano kalaki, pare?
Jun: P*t@ng!na, as much as 15 hectares. (laughs)
Joey: P*t@ng!na. Tapos siguro kumuha rin tayo dun. Pero we need 10 finances. (10 financers)
Jun: No, no, no, no. P*t@ng!na. I cannot just tell you all the things that I’ve been asked to do. But that one I think, I can ??? for ourselves.
Joey: I’ll talk to the…
Jun: Talk to him right away.

[Emac44]

Originally Posted by pian

I’ve posted this on various websites since that’s how politics works in our country. It’s propaganda or popularity contest. It’s making images and I want to counter this image. They’re making it appear that Jun Lozada, the current star witness of this corruption scandal, is a saint. This transcript should prove otherwise.
------------------------------------------------------------
Below is a transcript of a supposedly wiretapped conversation between Joey and Jun I got from a website. Judge for yourself if Jun Lozada is indeed deserving to be treated a hero, but of course after ascertaining if this is genuine.
usapang udifuta
________________________________________
TRACK 3...

Patriots for Truth

Joey (allegedly, Joey de Venecia): Hey Jun.
Jun (allegedly, Jun Lozada): Hey Joey.
Joey: Jun, can you hear me?
Jun: Yeah. Go ahead.
Joey: Yeah, where are you to put Chair (Abalos)?
Jun: Ang formula ko doon is kuha ako ng points dun sa 130.
Joey: Uh-huh…
Jun: Di ba? Kasi saan ko pa kukunin di ba? (laughs) Itong mga …
Joey: Kaya lang pare, we need to get some… at least from… something from them, di ba?
Jun: Yeah.. from both sides. P*t@ng!na…
Joey: Pare.. start from the thing.. Because he’s the gatekeeper of the votes. P*ta. I can understand, but not that amount.
Jun: Oh yeah. that’s too big, right. That’s too big.
Joey: Pare, let’s develop a plan to talk to him.
Jun: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So…
Joey: And you know what he told me, between you and I. When we were in Hong Kong… in Shenzen. Don’t quote me ha. Sabi niya kasi, marami akong…... Tinanong ko bakit ba ang laki-laki? Singkwenta.. Sabi niya marami ako kelangan bigyan. Pati yung NEDA. He said the word NEDA ha. P*t@ngina. For your information pare.
Jun: Information? I would understand that… He’d like to look at…
Joey: Maybe, wait, you can quote me and say, sabi ni Joey meron daw… sabi mo sa kanya may NEDA dun. (laughs) Di ba? He told me pare. (laughs)
Jun: Sige, sige…
Joey: P*t@ng!na, baka magwala na naman yung… (laughs)
Jun: For some reason, I have this chemistry with him. Sabi ko Chair… In fact, sabi niya, Jun, ikaw na mag-referee bukas ha. Sabi niya, I want you to be there. Ikaw na mag-referee, ikaw na magsabi kung papaano. Sige po Sir, ako na ang mag-aano sa ano… (laughs)
Joey: Well anyway, so that’s where I’m looking at right now. .. ought to get you.. And then, uh, think of a strategy for Ben (Abalos?), and if you need me to back you up, I’ll be there.
Jun: Hey Joey, regarding this Chinese embassy thing. I think I struck a motherload no? I’ll put them in Roxas Boulevard. P*t@ng!na, di ba?
Joey: In the Reformation? (Reclamation)
Jun: No, p*t@ng!na, that’s not prime. We’ll put them in the CCP complex.
Joey: Yup, got it.
Jun: P*t@ng!na. Yeah, that’s, wala.. I can ??? that ??? agreement. (I can swing that gddam deal pare)
Joey: You mean, owned by the Central Bank?
Jun: Yeah! Can you imagine? P*t@ng!na, same stature as the American embassy, better pa, di ba? The Japanese Embassy is in Roxas Boulevard. The American embassy is there. So p*ta, I just arrived that we put the Chinese embassy right in the midst of it all, di ba? Joey: Yes, yes, of course. That’s ??? to hear. That’s foresight. (That’s perfect)
Jun: … don’t mention my name. I think he knows me well.
Joey: Gaano kalaki, pare?
Jun: P*t@ng!na, as much as 15 hectares. (laughs)
Joey: P*t@ng!na. Tapos siguro kumuha rin tayo dun. Pero we need 10 finances. (10 financers)
Jun: No, no, no, no. P*t@ng!na. I cannot just tell you all the things that I’ve been asked to do. But that one I think, I can ??? for ourselves.
Joey: I’ll talk to the…
Jun: Talk to him right away.

Ok you want me to judge on half a transcript from a website. Half of which is in English and half in Tagalog. And I presume the transcripts are referring to some type of land deal and scam. Before I could judge anything I would need to know all the background on this. Including all the transcripts and definitely not from a website. In other words it isn't possible to judge this on your posting alone Pian