The New Election, the World Situation, and the Result

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 11-21-2006, 03:12 PM

I just see it this way. I am not a fan of socialism. I however have lived in a country that has a socialist government aswell as lived in the United States. Having lived under these 2 systems has brought me to realize that there are things in the socialist system that are not bad ideas and they could be assimilated into the US Capatilist system without making the US a socialist state for the good of the people.

I dont care what system a country uses they all have many many flaws to them.

Basically what I am saying is this, if the US system was so damn good, we would not be having these discussions would we?

syscom3 · 11-21-2006, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Basically what I am saying is this, if the US system was so damn good, we would not be having these discussions would we?

Exactly!

mkloby · 11-21-2006, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

I just see it this way. I am not a fan of socialism. I however have lived in a country that has a socialist government aswell as lived in the United States. Having lived under these 2 systems has brought me to realize that there are things in the socialist system that are not bad ideas and they could be assimilated into the US Capatilist system without making the US a socialist state for the good of the people.

I dont care what system a country uses they all have many many flaws to them.

Basically what I am saying is this, if the US system was so damn good, we would not be having these discussions would we?

There will always be room for improvement! I think socialism's greatest contribution was not in the ideology itself, but in the shortcomings that it revealed in the liberal democratic tradition - and the many changes to the institutions that it has brought. What I meant by my post before is that gov't supply can be a knee-jerk reaction - and I would be more in favor of redefining the healthcare programs for the poor - not just blanket gov't coverage. Germany still has problems from what I read w/ its system - as I noted earlier w/ 20% of doctors threatening strike and the deficit generated by the program.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

So not as good health care is better than people who can not afford health care at all?

Chris - when it comes do it - i think we're saying essentially the same thing. All citizens should have access to healthcare. I am just not a fan of the cliche knee jerk response of nationalized healthcare. I think Harvard has a point though - that there are other aspects of social welfare to consider as well, but those are other discussions in and of themselves. That is often a huge debate for a socialist government - where do you draw the line in terms of the social rights afforded to citizens. Also, a system has to have a motivation built into it to get people to work for themselves, not rely upon the gov't for their basic services indefinitely. The onus of responsibility is on the individual citizen to care for him and his family, not the gov't - the gov't should be there as a reserve chute, so to speak.

k9kiwi · 11-22-2006, 12:38 AM

So take a walk down our end of the world.

We are that PC and Eco friendly it can make you puke.

Try a health and government system that encourages you to be nothing AND be supported for doing it.

An education system that promotes you to be "Main Stream" to the extent of modifying your thinking for you.

A health system that supports and pays you to breed "New Tax Payers" into the planet, and then treats you like withered vines when you are past retirement age.

There has been great controversy over the New Zealand flag of recent years, about changing it to reflect our country properly.

I reckon they should just hoist a gob smacking Condom and be done with it.

Printed proudly down the side...

From the Cradle to the Grave.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 11-22-2006, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkloby

and I would be more in favor of redefining the healthcare programs for the poor - not just blanket gov't coverage. Germany still has problems from what I read w/ its system - as I noted earlier w/ 20% of doctors threatening strike and the deficit generated by the program.

Agreed and true. That is basically what I am saying about the healthcare and yes the German system is also flawed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkloby

The onus of responsibility is on the individual citizen to care for him and his family, not the gov't - the gov't should be there as a reserve chute, so to speak.

And this I agree with. I just think that some need to be helped.

Erich · 11-22-2006, 12:04 PM

think familie needs to get behind their "own" 100 %, too many in the states for one that are on the streets, and true by their own choosing, but can attest here in so. Oregon too many are pushed out of the homes or neglected and thus we the tax payers pay for the existence for these individuals; food, supplements, housing, health care and on it goes. would love to just get in their faces and say " Get a frickin JOB " but for some due to health issues almost ny impossible. Too many lazy people though in the world

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 11-22-2006, 12:21 PM

I think the lazy people should be forces to fend for themselves. If they are not recieving anything they will find work. I think those that are hurting not by there choice though should be helped and this is what I have been saying all along.

Matt308 · 11-22-2006, 12:35 PM

Can't disagree with the philosophy Adler. Its the implementation that is of concern.There is always going to be the bell curve. And thus there will always be those at the bottom that no matter how much money you pump into their support they will be unwilling to learn skills and contribute to society. For them, beans and rice is all that I'm willing to give to them. Hell I eat 'em. Why can't they too.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 11-22-2006, 01:04 PM

I agree.

Erich · 11-22-2006, 01:16 PM

yes but I get real tired of every road exit some clown with his dog, 4 legged or two legged sitting their gropping for a hand out like they have nothing when in reality they probably have more financial backing than what I have. Pretty bloody sick, the leeches

send them to the front !!

Matt308 · 11-22-2006, 01:50 PM

But then again, I will never forget a few years ago sitting in traffic at an intersection and a young woman with her three kids were asking for help. For rent if I recall. A truck full of young construction workers were laughing and pointing at her. Goofing on her plight. When suddenly one of them threw out a bunch of change into the gutter. Looked mostly like pennies.

She picked them up. And I cried. Still bothers me.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 11-22-2006, 01:59 PM

That was very ****** up of them. I would have beat there ass! I would never hurt others because of there plight.

Matt308 · 11-22-2006, 02:20 PM

Yeah. Not cool. Doom on them.

davparlr · 11-22-2006, 07:46 PM

There is no doubt that capitalism is the most efficient economic system. It encourages hard work and ingenuity. The harder you work, the more you get. You don't work, you don't eat (Biblical, by the way). Certainly encourages productivity.

Socialism does not encourage work. You work hard, you get things. You don't work, you get the same things. Whether you work or not, you always eat, you always get medical attention, you always get a place to live. Why work?

Unfornuately, capitalism has no heart or compassion, yet there are needs for this, so, government inserts benefits. The problem is, at what point is this balance maintained. Benefits are provided by taxes. Taxes affect the economy like pulling accessory power affects the thrust from a jet engine. We need to do that to provide electricity, air, hydraulic pressure, etc. None helps the efficiency of the engine. Pull enough power away and soon you cannot keep the aircraft aloft. Tax enough, and your economy will no longer support any growth and will start to decline. In addition, benefits start discouraging work and less work generates less tax. And so on.

I think some sort of nation planning for health care is needed, but it must be implemented in the most efficient manner. The latest government plan for medicine may be used as an example. By utilizing the market place, the cost of medicine to the customer has actually decreased to less than what was expected. This is using competition to drive down a government subsidy.

If you think people complain about HMOs wait until they get a dose of national health care. People in Canada often come to the US for medical attention (at least the one I knew did

) because waiting periods for some treatments are terrible.

Anyway, it tough nut to crack. The US system is not perfect and has some serious holes, but it does seem to be more efficient than almost all other systems, as noted by our unemployment numbers.

Sorry about the rambling.

pbfoot · 11-22-2006, 08:47 PM

In Canada sometimes there is waiting but if it is a necessary or emergency its taken care of fairly efficiently but if you seek alternative treatment or are impatient to have your illness remedied some do go over but few . But in the same vein some folks from the US come here to have some treatments . The system has its faults but nothing is perfect . I believe if the average guy in the US realized the benefits of the health care system they would opt for it but some of the lobbying groups down south have made it look the work of the devil with lots of misinformation . Myself I had to go to the Drs today unscheduled I was in and out including X rays in 50 minutes.