A Pilot's Perspective On Barack Obama

[ToughOmbre]

Originally Posted by wilbur1

I personnally do NOT want Barack Oblama as a pres he is just not the person I want in the chair, not because hes black or muslim or whatever. Hes just not the right person for this job! Thats my opinion. if you dont like it well shove it!

Say what you mean wilbur!

TO

[Danielmellbin]

Originally Posted by renrich

If you think that American TV represents what the US is about you are sadly mistaken and if you are watching the mainstream media report "news" it is no wonder you have the views you have. How many Americans in a ton? A six month course on US history and mentality? Taught by whom? I took two semesters of English History taught by an Englishman. Does that make me know much about the English?

No ofcourse TV doesn't and no a 6 month course (2400 pages taught by a half US/half DK Ph.D. called Peter Langkjær) doesn't and neither do the odd 20 American friends or my hundreds of visits - but when you put all of them together then - yes - it does give a good view of the american society in general.

[ToughOmbre]

Originally Posted by Danielmellbin

I wonder if the democrats are really so horribly dumb and evil and generally the source of everything wrong in the US as you say. I mean if everything you say is true then a single party system would seem like a solution?

Dan, see post #263 with regard to the 1st Gulf War 1990-1991. The Democrats in the US Senate were 100% wrong. Partisanship at the expense of national (and worldwide) security.

TO

[Danielmellbin]

Originally Posted by ToughOmbre

Dan, see post #263 with regard to the 1st Gulf War 1990-1991. The Democrats in the US Senate were 100% wrong. Partisanship at the expense of national (and worldwide) security.

TO

I'm not questioning the truth of the "vote remark" - I know that my side of the political spectrum makes mistakes. What I found curious is that in Rens view it seems that every single bad thing in the US (and the world?) stems from the "liberals". Furthermore - saying that partisanship is exclusive to the left is a bit far fetched.

[Danielmellbin]

Originally Posted by wilbur1

I personnally do NOT want Barack Oblama as a pres he is just not the person I want in the chair, not because hes black or muslim or whatever. Hes just not the right person for this job! Thats my opinion. if you dont like it well shove it!

Ah yes - well put. But I think that your opinion.... oh thats right... (shoves it)

[ToughOmbre]

Originally Posted by Danielmellbin

I'm not questioning the truth of the "vote remark" - I know that my side of the political spectrum makes mistakes. What I found curious is that in Rens view it seems that every single bad thing in the US (and the world?) stems from the "liberals". Furthermore - saying that partisanship is exclusive to the left is a bit far fetched.

Yes, both sides make mistakes and practice partisanship. But speaking from the American point of view only, the liberals/Democrats in the USA come down on the wrong side of the most important issues, more often than not.

The 1990-91 Gulf War vote was striking. But also....

Their opposition to nuclear power, drilling for oil where economically feasible (offshore, ANWR etc), wind power in Long Island Sound.

Opposition to the Patriot Act.

Opposition to the securing of our nations borders.

Opposition to monitoring communications into this country by terrorists.

Not to mention a host of social issues.

TO

[pbfoot]

I'm sorry the qoute I used by Herman Goering was taken out of the intended context . What i was trying to say is this patriotism card is over played no man that has achieved the status of either Obama or Mccain can their patriotism be in doubt . You have to be a patriot to want that job but media bullshit about Obama not wearing a lapel flag pin is just silly . Is it really that important

[ToughOmbre]

Originally Posted by pbfoot

I'm sorry the qoute I used by Herman Goering was taken out of the intended context . What i was trying to say is this patriotism card is over played no man that has achieved the status of either Obama or Mccain can their patriotism be in doubt . You have to be a patriot to want that job but media bullshit about Obama not wearing a lapel flag pin is just silly . Is it really that important

Correct. Lapel flag pin issue is silly.

Patriotism? McCain is a patriot, no doubt about it.

Obama? Not so sure.

TO

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Danielmellbin

We liked Clinton because he respected us. We don't like Bush because of his direspect towards us, the wrongfull invasion of Iraq and the tsunami of scandals that has come in his wake.

Whoa... help me understand your view of Clinton going into Bosnia without going to UN first? Both Bush's took those steps, the first one was successful. The second one was not because the Russians, French and Chines blocked the 'still in force' UN Resolutions calling for force if Saddamn stopped the inspections or attempted to hinder the coverage.

Tell me who did it the right way?

What protest did you personally lodge when Clinton bombed an asperin factory in Sudan and cruise missled camps in Afghanistan - and came out in 1998 and 1999 with the claim that Iraq had WMD, followed by Sec Defense, Sec State, Ms President Hillary, etc - oh and the same CIA chief Tenant.

Please contrast why Clinton respected Europeans.

As to scandals? and don't say it was 'only about sex' - it was about purjury in a multi million dollar lawsuit. In a system of Justice that presumes innocence which is why Truth is the fondation of our judicial process. When do you recall that some scandal was NOT on the front page?

Has that series of facts somehow slipped your mind? or possibly you weren't tuned into US culture and politics 10 years ago?

We like Obama because we can relate to his policies and - yes - because we fear McCain because he reminds us of Bush. And as Marcel has put it before: Bush's foreign policy has been rather disastrous.

Time will tell. if Terroist movements do not acquire Anthrax or nuclear capability, if conventional attacks against key industries don't occur, causing complete economic breakdown - either in Europe or US or even China, if Afghanistan and Iraq emerge as viable and vibrant Democracies, if N. Korea and Iran and Pakistan are persuaded to quit receiving and peddling nuclear weapon technologies - then make your judgements. The day isn't over yet.

As for "needing" a black president - no. But i think that it would remove alot of latent hatred many black people have. And more black people would feel as a part of the US if a black person was in charge - thats just my opinion. But him being black is for me just a small bonus (because of the above reasons).

I believe you are completely wrong about this. There is a broad spectrum of Black hatred that will not go away. Some hate because of their own economic plight, some hate because of the way their great, great, great grandparents were sold into bondage - many will not recognize that the first sellers were the Black tribes that took prisoners and sold them to europeans (before there was an America).

Some hate 'just because'. A lot don't, just like there is hatred among all races for different reasons, there is enlightenment - welcome to the human race.

I wonder if the democrats are really so horribly dumb and evil and generally the source of everything wrong in the US as you say. I mean if everything you say is true then a single party system would seem like a solution?

Nah, but the politics of hate started surfacing in opposition to LBJ from the left during Viet Nam, then progressed to the Republican Party starting with Nixon, then Reagan, then Bush 1 and really with GW - to the point it isn't rational. Clinton ALSO experienced the phoenomena from the Right - but the last 8 years are the worst in my 62 years of observation.

I will say that in my opinion the current Democrat leadership, for the past 8 years are the absolute masters of "tell a lie or partial truth enough times and people will believe". I am a conservative independent that often splits my vote - but in Texas many Democrats would be Republicans in California or New York.

I don't have all the answers but I do feel you are misinformed about many of your views - sometimes only a little, occasionally right on but mostly off.

Having said that you are closer to knowing my country's politics than I am in knowing your politics.

[Danielmellbin]

Originally Posted by ToughOmbre

Yes, both sides make mistakes and practice partisanship. But speaking from the American point of view only, the liberals/Democrats in the USA come down on the wrong side of the most important issues, more often than not.

The 1990-91 Gulf War vote was striking. But also....

Their opposition to nuclear power, drilling for oil where economically feasible (offshore, ANWR etc), wind power in Long Island Sound.

Opposition to the Patriot Act.

Opposition to the securing of our nations borders.

Opposition to monitoring communications into this country by terrorists.

Not to mention a host of social issues.

TO

Don't you mean the American conservative point of view? Other than the Kuweit vote I don't see anything objectively wrong - simply politics/views that differ from those of the democratic party.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by pbfoot

I'm sorry the qoute I used by Herman Goering was taken out of the intended context . What i was trying to say is this patriotism card is over played no man that has achieved the status of either Obama or Mccain can their patriotism be in doubt . You have to be a patriot to want that job but media bullshit about Obama not wearing a lapel flag pin is just silly . Is it really that important

I agree on every thing except the last points - first wishing to have the power inherent in the Presidency is FAR more compelling than 'patriotism. I suspect that Teddy Roosevelt was close to the last President that absolutely woke up and said I will do the best I can for the good of the American people - every day.

Over the past 10 years there are only TWO Senators that I feel that way about - McCain and Lieberman - and both have been villified by theri own party when they took the statesman path rather than partisan.

I believe Bush is close to that in that what he is doing is what he believes is Best from his perspective. Think back at how many times he could have gone on a personal and vindictive attack and rebuttal to Pelosi, Reid, Schumer, Clinton, etc - but he turned the other cheek and remained above that course to his extreme detriment.

As to the pin - the question is why make it a forceful point by omission, and then on the 4th of July when he's talking to vets he does a 180

So what are we to think? and only to the extent that by not wearing it he sent a message that we are all trying to really understand.

[wilbur1]

Thank you T.O.

Daniel YOU dont live here so its very hard for you to get an idea of what we go through, I still believe in this country that i served and i dont want some peacelovin wannabe idiot in charge,,,hell the the guy cant even make up his mind, to quote John Wayne, " to hell with em" I CAN tell you right now that we would not be having this discussion if ole man Teddy was in the seat . Just remember 1 thing..........the U.S. has never turned on your country, nor do we plan too, but if it happenend I WILL FIGHT FOR THE RED WHITE AND BLUE

[Danielmellbin]

War in fromer Yugoslavia: Clinton went in with NATO backing (and official and unofficial support from almost all the european countries). Isolationists/pacifists in European countries where blocking any major European intervention - as such Clintons "forced" entry into the war was very much welcomed over here. He didn't feel the need to say "with us or against us". He was smart enough to know that ofcourse his friends are with him.

Clinton scandals: Yes - It was just sex - and not anybodies business - but him and his wife.

Bush Jr scandals: have in many cases cost lives. (Katrina and Iraq shining brightly)

Bush sr. did ok in the first gulf war - and was smart enough to stay out of Iraq (however dumb enough to promise iraqi insurgents that the US was coming to help them - wonder why they dont like us..?).

Why would I protest Clinton bombing terrorist camps in Afghanistan or a misfire into Sudan?

"Time will tell. If Terrorist movements do not acquire Anthrax or nuclear capability, if conventional attacks against key industries don't occur, causing complete economic breakdown - either in Europe or US or even China, if Afghanistan and Iraq emerge as viable and vibrant Democracies, if N. Korea and Iran and Pakistan are persuaded to quit receiving and peddling nuclear weapon technologies - then make your judgements. The day isn't over yet."

So success is defined as things not getting any worse?
If so it wont be thanks to him. Furthermore terrorists will never gain nuclear technology - perhaps buy a dirty bomb but nothing more. They already have biological weapons but have been smart enough not to use 'em so far. They will never be able to cause economic breakdown. Iraq and Afghanistan will in no forseable future become anything that resembles democratic nations other than in name. Deaths due to terrorism in the world have exploded since Bush jr began his rampage - and they have risen almost every single year since.

Regarding reconciliation: First of - I'm not calling anybody here racist - so do not misunderstand any of the following. And I know that there are many many racist black people. But to begin to swerve the fault of slavery onto the native africans is ridiculous (sorry - but it really is).
Black hatred today primarily stems from the leftovers of racism - that is still alive and kicking. People who have never been discriminated have a hard time imagining how much hatred it provokes (take the misunderstood Obama remark and multiply it by a trillion).
One thing that has really surprised me in this debate is the complete denial of racism in recent history. It comes across as if "yea there was the slavery which was the africans fault and then the racial segregation - but that was only in the south and a long time ago". I would urge people to study some of the recent history on this matter. Perhaps this last part comes accross as very rude - in that case I'm sorry but don't know how else to express it.

Originally Posted by drgondog

Nah, but the politics of hate started surfacing in opposition to LBJ from the left during Viet Nam, then progressed to the Republican Party starting with Nixon, then Reagan, then Bush 1 and really with GW - to the point it isn't rational. Clinton ALSO experienced the phoenomena from the Right - but the last 8 years are the worst in my 62 years of observation.

I will say that in my opinion the current Democrat leadership, for the past 8 years are the absolute masters of "tell a lie or partial truth enough times and people will believe". I am a conservative independent that often splits my vote - but in Texas many Democrats would be Republicans in California or New York.

I don't have all the answers but I do feel you are misinformed about many of your views - sometimes only a little, occasionally right on but mostly off.

Having said that you are closer to knowing my country's politics than I am in knowing your politics.

I think that the hatred from each side has been too much since LBJ. We can agree on that. The Clinton administration saw it go one step further. And with Bush it has really climaxed. But in my mind there is a difference regarding Bush: He deserves it. Personally I have never hated a political opponent until the stage was being set for the 2nd Gulf War - and that was in my opinion the time when Bush and Co. started showing their true neoconservative colours. His policies have since been so flawed and devisive that it cannot be blamed on "the left" that he is so hated.

[Danielmellbin]

Originally Posted by wilbur1

Thank you T.O.

Daniel YOU dont live here so its very hard for you to get an idea of what we go through, I still believe in this country that i served and i dont want some peacelovin wannabe idiot in charge,,,hell the the guy cant even make up his mind, to quote John Wayne, " to hell with em" I CAN tell you right now that we would not be having this discussion if ole man Teddy was in the seat . Just remember 1 thing..........the U.S. has never turned on your country, nor do we plan too, but if it happenend I WILL FIGHT FOR THE RED WHITE AND BLUE

Peaceloving used as a swearword - thats rich. I must remember to tell my friends who served in Iraq and those who currently serve in Afghanistan (including my brother who has just come home) that the US isn't planing to attack us.... Thanks a bunch "ally"

[Njaco]

Anyway using the bad words makes 'em loose their effect.

I think you are so wrong on this score. Not using the word makes it loose its effect. Take away its power by not even saying it. using it just reinforces any meaning that is attached to it.

It depends - Why is somebody calling his father a typical black man?

Because - today, currently - many black children are fatherless in the US. Its a major problem. So saying his father is a typical black man is a cold, hard fact devoid of any hidden meaning - which is exactly what you say you take from the comment about his grandmother. I'm trying to show how it isn't and its offensive.

We liked Clinton because he respected us. We don't like Bush because of his direspect towards us,

First I want to say this is just my opinion but... Nothing was ever done about terrorists for years by the European community and now that the US is involved, that is what scares you. We had the brass b*lls to do something about the scum and sorry if you don't like what we do, but the track record of the last 30 years by the EU and others against terrorism is a bit thin. And I hope Bush and even McCain scare everybody because we're not going to sit by, trying to sweet talk some nutjob, if he (Mc Cain) is elected.

If so it wont be thanks to him. Furthermore terrorists will never gain nuclear technology - perhaps buy a dirty bomb but nothing more. They already have biological weapons but have been smart enough not to use 'em so far.

Do you count Iran as one of these cool, calm and collected countries that have patience and intelligence?