A Pilot's Perspective On Barack Obama

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by pbfoot

I watched that interview of ret'd Senator Fritz Holling and he basically said the "in the period he served the impetus had changed from legislation to raising money for the next campaign " it was a informative interview for me I'd be interested to see what others have to say
Bill Moyers Journal . Watch & Listen | PBS

Politics in this country is all about acquisition, control and exercise of Power - not Statesmanship. We used to have a large population of Senators and Congressmen that had political differences about how best to serve the country - but they were gentlemen (and ladies) in debate and did (in my opinion) the best they could to serve both their individual constituents as wellas the country at large.

Today, it is everything from huge pork barrel projects, character assasination, bribes, political action committees to raise funds and by pass disclosure, etc etc.

I am for serious reform starting with public hangings for all senators and Congressmen state by state and replacing with new elections as the 'old team' is cut down. A 'must' condition is that they pass a literacy test as well as the Citizenship tests that Immigrants must pass before becoming a citizen.

Other than thes small points I don't have an opinion.

[pbfoot]

I think your correct its truly a sad state of affairs ....I believe in term limits and a period of a few years after your term before you can be a lobbiest would be a start .

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by pbfoot

I think your correct its truly a sad state of affairs ....I believe in term limits and a period of a few years after your term before you can be a lobbiest would be a start .

I like public hangings better - no need to stipulate controls on being a lobbyist.

I forgot to mention one other criteria. Being an attorney should automatically disqualify based on the simple 'integrity test' and statements made during campaigns are subject to libel suits and damages. Loser pays all court costs and y litigant (in political peeing contest) posts bond before filing suit.

[toiditm]

Originally Posted by drgondog

Based on the 'points' you attempt to make you seem to fall into the same trap - namely flowery adjectives and no substance. Why don't you overcome this possible wrong assumption by proving each statement you just made?

I already witnessed Dan's treatment and observed that what he wrote was ignored while the other participants in this discussion pilloried him as if he were answerable for ten years of 'liberal' offenses. I don't mean to assume anything, but perhaps stonewalling your investigation will convince you to do the research yourself and prove that my assertions are false. Once you discover all the proof, we can commiserate about how objective reality is just the first cycle in the spin-zone.

Originally Posted by drgondog

By implication you seem to think you have the intellectual authority to disparage every point of view expressed by those that challenged Daniel's view and immediately started lecturing regarding your own. Way to start on your very first post?

I did not support a single one of Dan's assertions, nor did I defend the candidate in question. I referenced 'liberal' sources of information but there is nothing specifically partisan in any of it. When politicians are allowed to spend more time fund-raising than doing the job they were hired for, it is shameful. When a news organization is allowed to stop investigating and simply serves as a publicist for propaganda, it is shameful. When the Congress is allowed to unconstitutionally abdicate their responsibilities to the executive (ostensibly to give themselves more time to campaign), it is shameful.

If I implied some authority, it was the logical result of presenting an unassailable position. You made a thoughtful and considerate post and I hope that I have responded in kind.

edits: I made sure to emphasize who I believe is being shamed. Myself and my fellow Americans.

Originally Posted by drgondog

Politics in this country is all about acquisition, control and exercise of Power - not Statesmanship.

Fair enough. Subjectively you can't debate with graffitti - you can't educate it, you can't explain the error of its ways and, other than perhaps bearing false witness against it, if you don't like it you can do little more than paint over it and try to forget. Whether you believe the free speech of 'the other side' has undermined the truth of the message or you believe that bad policy is responsible for the results, you can see what is painted on the walls of Rome.

[Njaco]

I did not support a single one of Dan's assertions, nor did I defend the candidate in question. I referenced 'liberal' sources of information but there is nothing specifically partisan in any of it. When politicians spend more time fund-raising than doing the job they were hired for, it is shameful. When a news organization stops investigating and simply serves as a publicist for propaganda, it is shameful. When the Congress is so consumed by fear that they unconstitutionally abdicate their responsibilities to the executive (ostensibly to give themselves more time to campaign), it is shameful.

I can't argue with you there. I agree. But you have to understand that while trying to be objective in a debate, its sometimes difficult coming from a position that has been so vilified of late.

[toiditm]

Originally Posted by Njaco

I can't argue with you there. I agree. But you have to understand that while trying to be objective in a debate, its sometimes difficult coming from a position that has been so vilified of late.

I think you are misconstruing the arguments, but I could be wrong. I've seen very few outright vilified positions, but I can't sympathize if you support a position that has been vilified since the Middle Ages, such as torture. It's all well and good to have legal counsel offer advice in exceptional cases, but when there is not even a pretense of a trial in the interest of accountability and justices of our Supreme Court cite episodes of a fictional television series as if they were historical datapoints, it sets a dangerous precedent. A very dangerous precedent. There should be witnesses called, testimony given and signatures attached to the exoneration of criminals, even those who are considered heroes.

[Njaco]

When Dick Cheney and Bush are called "Darth Vader" by pelosi and Clinton and everybody applauds, I think that is being vilified.

When I see "Bush Lied" bumper stickers everywhere among the other nasty things he's been called, I think thats being vilified.

When every media outlet reports on Bush being the worst president ever, its being vilified.

Do you think conservatives are coming to the table on a level , fair and even playing field at this point in time? We are currently the party that everybody loves to hate.

As far as torture, its a war, they are combatants and I'll be d*mned if these cretins who want to destroy our society are allowed to even partake of it through a court trial. Where was the trial for Nick Berg? Do you think that was torture?

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by toiditm

Fair enough. Subjectively you can't debate with graffitti - you can't educate it, you can't explain the error of its ways and, other than perhaps bearing false witness against it, if you don't like it you can do little more than paint over it and try to forget. Whether you believe the free speech of 'the other side' has undermined the truth of the message or you believe that bad policy is responsible for the results, you can see what is painted on the walls of Rome.

Funny though - I remember around 1984 when similar graffiti was seen with characters of Reagan and Thatcher - I guess they got painted over the day the Berlin Wall came down.....

[toiditm]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

Funny though - I remember around 1984 when similar graffiti was seen with characters of Reagan and Thatcher - I guess they got painted over the day the Berlin Wall came down.....

So you're discounting the message of the graffiti because the Berlin Wall fell. Can we discount the movement by 'conservatives' eager for their own Southern Wall as fringe then? I can only imagine the graffiti we will see there.

Originally Posted by Njaco

When Dick Cheney and Bush are called "Darth Vader" by pelosi and Clinton and everybody applauds, I think that is being vilified.

When I see "Bush Lied" bumper stickers everywhere among the other nasty things he's been called, I think thats being vilified.

When every media outlet reports on Bush being the worst president ever, its being vilified.

Do you think conservatives are coming to the table on a level , fair and even playing field at this point in time? We are currently the party that everybody loves to hate.

As far as torture, its a war, they are combatants and I'll be d*mned if these cretins who want to destroy our society are allowed to even partake of it through a court trial. Where was the trial for Nick Berg? Do you think that was torture?

I'm not here to troll your community. If you're looking for an even playing field or justice for Nick Berg, don't think I have your answers. Ronald Reagan convened the Tower Commission and took responsibility for the allegations leveled against his administration. I'm sorry if that's not the answer you're looking for.

[Njaco]

toid, I don't think you're "trolling", you've got some good posts that make deep thinking a much needed tool at the moment.

That said, I don't understand the Reagan reference. Did they address the "Republicans are rich" myth?

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by toiditm

So you're discounting the message of the graffiti because the Berlin Wall fell. Can we discount the movement by 'conservatives' eager for their own Southern Wall as fringe then? I can only imagine the graffiti we will see there.I'm not here to troll your community. If you're looking for an even playing field or justice for Nick Berg, don't think I have your answers. Ronald Reagan convened the Tower Commission and took responsibility for the allegations leveled against his administration. I'm sorry if that's not the answer you're looking for.

No it's not and you're deflecting away from the subject because I think you know where I'm going on this - Reagan was villainized because of his dealing with the Soviet Union and his policies ultimately let to the Soviet Union's demise, graffiti or not - I could remember tens of thousands of protesters through out Europe - my point - where were they when communism ended in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe?

I guess they were painting over their old graffiti!

And what does this have to do with Nick Berg????

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Whats up with you having links parsed into your post though?

[toiditm]

Originally Posted by Njaco

toid, I don't think you're "trolling", you've got some good posts that make deep thinking a much needed tool at the moment.

That said, I don't understand the Reagan reference. Did they address the "Republicans are rich" myth?

Just a reference of what a president can do when scandals reach the level of distraction. The Tower Commission addressed the criminal acts perpetrated by various members of Reagan's administration. Like the Long Commission before it, the internal investigation was proud to be non-partisan, thorough, unapologetic, and unafraid of criticism.

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

I could remember tens of thousands of protesters through out Europe - my point - where were they when communism ended in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe?

I believe there were many protesters during and after the fall of communism, and the Germans were among those who agreed to tear down the wall, not build it up with an arms race.

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Whats up with you having links parsed into your post though?

It clarifies things without me having to explain. Like this.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by toiditm

Just a reference of what a president can do when scandals reach the level of distraction. The Tower Commission addressed the criminal acts perpetrated by various members of Reagan's administration. Like the Long Commission before it, the internal investigation was proud to be non-partisan, thorough, unapologetic, and unafraid of criticism.I believe there were many protesters during and after the fall of communism, and the Germans were among those who agreed to tear down the wall, not build it up with an arms race.
It clarifies things without me having to explain. Like this.

Well the arms race brought it down, like it or not, its history...

[Amsel]

The neocons hijacked the conservative Republican party and the leftists hijacked the democratic party. I think they all work for the same master. Obama is a socialist through and through. People are projecting all these attributes and hopes upon him. He will turn this country into a banana republic if he could. I think that the media is propping him up though. I do not think he is as popular as the leftist media portrays.

Just watch out for the riots in november when he loses.