The Real Threat; Not Communism, but Big Gov't and the Left

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 01-15-2006, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harvard

Quite to the contrary, the problem is difficult for many people to recognize. In this thread alone I've probably pointed the problem out approaching 20 times.

In the quote you used above I suggeted one way to solve the problem. There's a saying that says "knowing is half the problem". So before everybody can know and recognize the problem, we can't solve it.

I look at this differenty. YOu seem to make it seem that you have to drill it into my head about 20 times, but you know what I dont care to hear about your whining about our government. Yes I said it. I dont fear our government like you do, I dont fear democrocy, I dont fear capitolism, nor do I fear Socialism because I understand it.

You say that we need to know before we can solve. I understand and know and dont fear it like it you do, because I am fine the way it is.

Dont go and tell me either that I am wrong either Harvard, just because I look at things differently than you do. Just because you feel about things a certain a way does not mean that you are necessarilly right. I accept your beliefs and respect them, but you dont have to tell me that my beliefs are wrong 20 times and try and change my mind because you can not do so and wont!

Delusional · 01-15-2006, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Quite to the contrary, the problem is difficult for many people to recognize. In this thread alone I've probably pointed the problem out approaching 20 times.

In the quote you used above I suggeted one way to solve the problem. There's a saying that says "knowing is half the problem". So before everybody can know and recognize the problem, we can't solve it.

Again, yes, you have harped over the problem (which I don't even view as a problem) about a million and a half times. My point was obviously that all you can do is whine about it.
Well, good then, I guess you're letting everyone know about the problem, so we can fix a problem that we don't even view as a problem.
I think that you will find that the following quotes satisfy my first reply of:
"Harvard,
Your ideas make little sense. You say a smaller government would work if everyone involved in that government was honest and unselfish. Yet you have said over and over again that power corrupts and makes even the most honorable person a greedy, lying dirtbag. In a smaller government, would not everyone share the power? And would not everyone desire more and more power, therefore becoming more and more corrupted? It is human nature to want more. Do you expect to find humans who go against basic human nature for this small government you so desire? If so, I can tell you that are you living in the wrong country for the job."
Here are quotes by you:
"Power corrupts."
"Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Again a simple concept: You put the power in someone elses hands, and they use it as they see fit. In fact they overdo it when they have enough."
"...you give someone power and they will misuse it eventually."
"The best gov't is a small one, which puts almost all the power in the hands of the people. From what I've read the concept of early America relied on personal responsibility. People in concept were highly intelligent and took responsibility for their actions. They didn't need large gov't regulation."
"The ideal small gov't nation:

A small police force is all that is required, because the people are very responsible and behave well. In fact the whole nation requires little governance, because they are self governing."
"I do think self gov't is possible in the tribal sense, if we had smarter people."
"As far as systems go. The only system that really works is one of small gov't run by the people. If the people are bad ie. greedy, lawless, etc., then they require more gov't control."
"Yes, it is possible to have smaller gov't when your people are honest, and ethical."
Furthermore, I would like to point out something else to you, Harvard.
You said:
"Carter was so wishy washy in how he solves problems it's insane. He mentions a problem, and he always has the same solution "The gov't can solve it". Listen to the stuff he says. Really listen to it, it's phoney baloney."
His solution was the government can solve it? Funny how he wasn't re-elected partly due to the fact that he did little to nothing to solve stagflation, unemployment, and low consumer confidence, because he believed that the government could do nothing to solve this problem, as it was part of the normal fluctuations in a capitalist economy. He refused to take any measure to solve these problems. Sound like someone who thinks the government is the answer to everything? I also find it ironic that you insult one of the most Christian, ethical, and moral presidents that the U.S. ever had. Also, I find it funny that you insult him when he was a Washington outsider whom I don't think anyone would ever describe as a bureaucrat.
Another quote of yours:
"...w/o any attempt at a practical sol'n; they don't think of clear solutions to problems; they evade the truth; and they are incapable of clear logical thought. It's so funny to observe that they all share these same traits. Observe it, it's truely scary."
How humorous it is that in this quote you are describing the liberals whom you hate so much, and yet this quote describes YOU perfectly.

Harvard · 01-15-2006, 07:15 PM

Quote:

I look at this differenty. YOu seem to make it seem that you have to drill it into my head about 20 times, but you know what I dont care to hear about your whining about our government. Yes I said it. I dont fear our government like you do, I dont fear democrocy, I dont fear capitolism, nor do I fear Socialism because I understand it.

Ok, I didn't say I fear it, but I will say I fight it.

So you don't mind having anybody grab power and abuse it? You just accept it huh? That's what the Germans before the last the last two world wars. My point is you prevent this sort of problem before it happens.

Harvard · 01-15-2006, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Again, yes, you have harped over the problem (which I don't even view as a problem) about a million and a half times. My point was obviously that all you can do is whine about it.
Well, good then, I guess you're letting everyone know about the problem, so we can fix a problem that we don't even view as a problem.

So you don't view power hungry corrupt bureaucrats as a problem? You just want to let them step in and let them do whatever they want?

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 01-15-2006, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harvard

So you don't mind having anybody grab power and abuse it? You just accept it huh? That's what the Germans before the last the last two world wars. My point is you prevent this sort of problem before it happens.

And there you go. Get your history straight before you make a post. It will help you from looking like a fool. Germany did start WW2 but they did not start WW1. Its a fact, that most people know, atleast thoughs whos history is not corrupted.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 01-15-2006, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harvard

So you don't view power hungry corrupt bureaucrats as a problem? You just want to let them step in and let them do whatever they want?

I dont let them come in and do whatever the hell they want. I live my life the way I want it. You should do the same. I am happy with my life and no one tells me what to do (okay that is not true, the army tells me what to do, however I choose to be in the army so again I dont mind). No one tells me what my house has to look like, no one tells me what music i have to listen to, no one tells me what to do in my spare time.

You really need to get out more and enjoy life instead of worrying about stupid things.

Harvard · 01-15-2006, 07:56 PM

You danced around what I quoted, and I'm not worried about a thing. Bureaucrats are a real problem. You might be just choosing to ignore it.

Harvard · 01-15-2006, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Germany did start WW2

Yes exactly, so let's stay on the point. What was the problem, one very bad bureaucrat.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 01-15-2006, 07:58 PM

No I choose to live my life.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 01-15-2006, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harvard

Quote:

Germany did start WW2

Yes exactly, so let's stay on the point. What was the problem, one very bad bureaucrat.

I never said he was a good leader. I just pointed out the fact that you got your facts mixed up. You were the one that said that they started WW1 and WW2.

These were your words:

That's what the Germans before the last the last two world wars.

Harvard · 01-15-2006, 08:03 PM

I may have missed that, but I was making a point. It looks to me like you are trying to change the subject by mentioning this and saying get out and enjoy life. Let's not go off on another tangent, and stay on the main point.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 01-15-2006, 08:05 PM

No I am not trying to change the subject. I just answer to what you say. But oh well the football game is over and it is 2 oclock in the morning. I would rather sleep than be bothered with this.

Delusional · 01-15-2006, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Quote:
Again, yes, you have harped over the problem (which I don't even view as a problem) about a million and a half times. My point was obviously that all you can do is whine about it.
Well, good then, I guess you're letting everyone know about the problem, so we can fix a problem that we don't even view as a problem.

So you don't view power hungry corrupt bureaucrats as a problem? You just want to let them step in and let them do whatever they want?

I guess the only thing that you could reply to was the same point you keep repeating, eh? Was that because I was right on the rest of it? Yeah, I thought so...

Adler, I am not trying to speak for you, just to let you know, and if it comes off that way, I sincerely apologize, especially if you disagree with what I am about to say. Harvard, I think what is central in Adler's argument with you involving WWI and WWII is how can we listen to the crackpot ideas of a person who "missed" that WWI was not begun by Germany? Most 15 year olds know this, let alone a person who claims to have important ideas on the governments of the world. Not to mention that you seem to think that one and only one form of government is right for every nation in the entire world. Last I checked, different people and different nations had different needs. You're pretty arrogant to think that you have come up with this miraculous all-encompassing system. Well, I'm not really sure if arrogant is the right word for it, exactly...

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 01-16-2006, 06:56 AM

Nope no offense taken.

Harvard · 02-04-2006, 02:49 AM

Yes delusional you can say I'm arrogant in saying this, but I don't think so. Let me mention a real example, true to life.

Here in my town there is a bill put forth by the local city leadership to ban people from working on their own car or home. What do you make of that? Don't you feel that the few in the local gov't are attempting to take power from the local citizens? I do, and again this is an example of the gov't "knowing what's best for the people".

Guess what my boss says about it? He jokes and says "Well, if I can't use my chainsaw in my own backyard, then I'll just take it to the city office and use it on their desk". Not that he really would, but the point is that people who value freedom will only let bureaucrats go so far. As the US constitution states, "we are governed for the people, by the people".

And again I say, human beings do not handle power well, and will abuse it eventually. So the best form of gov't is one of self governance. The best example in the world is most probably the USA. Incidentally we have the strongest economy in the world. Why, because we are the most free. We are not perfect, and the best of US citizens watch their own gov't very closely, and do not tolerate any gov't abuse.

Just as my boss expressed his own ill feelings, most of us feel this way and we end up writing our congressmen or local city supervisors. It may sound radical, but this is how most conservative Americans are.

In many other countries I can imagine that the citizens just do whatever they are told by authorities even if it violates their own freedom or human rights.