The Real Threat; Not Communism, but Big Gov't and the Left

[plan_D]

National Health is a socialist idea, you're right and it's a socialist idea I agree with. Just because I disagree with the vast majority of socialist ideals, I won't call them all bad because socialists thought it up. You have a problem with anything, and everything socialist? Fine. But you aren't running your own life - you're dictated by a book.

And for your information, in Britain, we also have private health care - for those who don't like the NHS. So, there it is ...choice.

I cannot afford a mortgage, Havard but for the past three weeks I have worked 80 hours a week. And I will continue to work at least 40 per week as long as I have this job. Am I totally incapable of looking after myself, Havard? Am I scrounger? Do I live off other people's taxes?

Christianity teaches to love one another, correct? If that's so Christianity is teaching, in a way, for us all to be charitable - right? Do you give money to charity, Havard? Or is money too important to you? I'll admit that my money will be going to waste somewhere along the line. But I don't care, it's only money ...and it will, also, at some point be going to someone decent. It's only £100 a month, and I get healthcare and a pension ... what's £100 to me? Nothin' I've been pulling in £600 a week for the past three... I spent £100 on booze alone on x-mas eve ... does Christianity teach money is everything? Didn't think so.

[pbfoot]

harvard my "thinking conservative" friend I think that you should relly check out the various options other lands have used for health care as for myself I go to work everyday at 5am do physical work own my home drive a clapped out 91 toyota with 320000 miles drive taxi part time and your thought process is not Christian at all I would call it selfish not everyone has the means to pay the pheonomenal sums health insurance costs in the States just ask GM Ford and Daimler Chrysler pensioners

[Harvard]

National Health is a socialist idea, you're right and it's a socialist idea I agree with. Just because I disagree with the vast majority of socialist ideals, I won't call them all bad because socialists thought it up. You have a problem with anything, and everything socialist? Fine. But you aren't running your own life - you're dictated by a book.

I appreciate the fact that you understand this stuff. A lot of people can't and yet it's so simple.

What book? The rule of Law? The Bible? A Physics book? Yes these are ancient and proven principles. Of course

And for your information, in Britain, we also have private health care - for those who don't like the NHS. So, there it is ...choice.

That's only ok. The smaller the gov't the better. Power corrupts. Whatever you pay to the bureaucrats, you can assure that it goes into pork barrel spending. Here in the US it happens too, and it makes me sick.

I cannot afford a mortgage, Havard but for the past three weeks I have worked 80 hours a week. And I will continue to work at least 40 per week as long as I have this job. Am I totally incapable of looking after myself, Havard? Am I scrounger? Do I live off other people's taxes?

No you don't, but those who are a scroungers take your tax dollars from yourself. As you well know. Maybe you work 80 hrs per week, because 50% is going to the bureaucracy.

Christianity teaches to love one another, correct? If that's so Christianity is teaching, in a way, for us all to be charitable - right? Do you give money to charity, Havard? Or is money too important to you? I'll admit that my money will be going to waste somewhere along the line. But I don't care, it's only money ...and it will, also, at some point be going to someone decent. It's only £100 a month, and I get healthcare and a pension ... what's £100 to me? Nothin' I've been pulling in £600 a week for the past three... I spent £100 on booze alone on x-mas eve ... does Christianity teach money is everything? Didn't think so.

No it isn't only money, it's your hard earned money. This takes the majority of your time to earn. Do you like to waste your time and even your life? I don't. Spending your money on charity is honorable, but is wasting your time even your life paying a bunch of bureaucrats? One could argue that paying bureaucrats is a Christian principle, because you are giving them charity so they could work

On the other hand they are bleeding you dry.

[pbfoot]

actually if you investigate the systems our bureaucracy for health care is much cheaper then the system you use which is complex dealing with all the various health plans that are available and their various limits etc it is extremely costly. if my child was to have a serious ailment in the states i could actually lose my home to pay for the bills thats just not right in the 21st century. And in your Chriatian philosophy who draws the line as to who is deserving and who isn't of living and dying is that why people in Canada live longer then Americans . are you aware that cuba has a lower baby mortality rate then the US

[plan_D]

The Bible, proven? Where?

No, I work 80 hours a week because I want to. One third of my wage disappears every week into the various deductions - including national insurance, company pension, union and income tax.

You honestly believe that waste wouldn't happen in any government? You talk about waste because of government corruption but you cannot offer an alternative. In fact, the only alternative to government is anarchy which is even further left on the political spectrum than Communism.

And don't even bring religion into this. The Catholic run Europe of the Dark Ages couldn't have been anymore corrupt. And human corruption doesn't make the national health system a bad idea. Any system can be corrupted.

Everytime money moves from your hand to another, some of it is going into the gold lined pockets of politicians - but if I complained about that everytime I bought a Mars bar, I'd have had a heart attack at thirteen.

[Harvard]

The Bible, proven? Where? .

That would be an interesting debate under the subject of "Faiths"

No, I work 80 hours a week because I want to. One third of my wage disappears every week into the various deductions - including national insurance, company pension, union and income tax.

That isn't too bad, about like the good ol' USA. I've got plenty of gripes about it regardless. I'm not kidding. Once some of these nobodys start working for the gov't they really lord it over people, and they certainly sink the money into the good ol' pork barrel.

You honestly believe that waste wouldn't happen in any government? You talk about waste because of government corruption but you cannot offer an alternative. In fact, the only alternative to government is anarchy which is even further left on the political spectrum than Communism.

No way, the only alternative is a very small gov't. I mean by necessity only. That's the ideal case. You don't need program after program of civil servants who serve nothing but themselves--That's complete pork. Cut out all the pork, ie meaningless gov't funded nonsense groups, etc.
decreased gov't expenditures=decreased taxes.

And don't even bring religion into this. The Catholic run Europe of the Dark Ages couldn't have been anymore corrupt. And human corruption doesn't make the national health system a bad idea. Any system can be corrupted.

I never did bring religion onto anything, I mentioned it as an incidental to good clean ethical character.

Everytime money moves from your hand to another, some of it is going into the gold lined pockets of politicians - but if I complained about that everytime I bought a Mars bar, I'd have had a heart attack at thirteen.

Well you probably would have gotten it from the sat fat and cholesterol in the mars bar, because I know plenty anti-bureaucracy advocates who have lived into their 80s--grandpa and friends.

[plan_D]

No it wouldn't be interesting at all. I know, because we've had these 'dicsussions' about religion before. And everything that is contradictory to the bible is a lie to you lot, so it's just like arguing with a brick wall.

A reduction in the civil servants would be nice. But even with a reduced government, there'd be waste and corruption.

Incidental to a good clean ethical character? You mean like those that rape choir boys, or those corrupt bishops of the dark - modern ages?

Did these people stress everytime they bought a Mars bar? Were you there everytime they bought a Mars bar?

[Harvard]

hi plan-d:

It looks like our debate has pretty well reached an endpoint, but it was good.

As far as stress is concerned, I think that isn't appropriate here. Personally I think stress is ok as long as it is managed through self control and exercise.

However, I think questioning gov't expenditures is no more stressful than the work of an accountant, or mathamatician.

BTW, what's your profession in?

[plan_D]

I work for Royal Mail - doing everything in there, basically ... but I want to be an aircraft technician - the ball will be rolling towards that come september, hopefully.

[Harvard]

Good luck!

Nothing like debating with an Englishman. You guys learn that in school?
We don't here in the USA, but we sure could use more of it!

[plan_D]

I never did, but I never did sociology in school. I doubt they teach about important things though. I'm more curious than the average person, one piece of knowledge with any link to another subject will get me interested in the next subject. For example, I have given myself the goal to learn about most of the wars, cultural revolutions and political changes in Europe (and to some extent the world) from the French revolution to World War II - why? Because World War II has it's roots much deeper than in the Versailles Treaty.

The problem is, while searching for books, I realised that I have a strong interest in the Royal Navy - so I'm researching that on the side.

It's expensive being curious.

Oh, how I wish they did teach us like that in school. I hear they're deleting World War II out of schooling because it takes most of history up - and I should hope it does! But the thing is, you never get taught about World War II anyway! It just proves so when people in this country think the Battle of Britain was in 1066!

[the lancaster kicks ass]

apparently we're getting taught too much about nazi germany too, what a load of ****, i think it's facinating..............

[Gnomey]

Originally Posted by the lancaster kicks ass

apparently we're getting taught too much about nazi germany too, what a load of ****, i think it's facinating..............

Most of the people on here would agree with you Lanc (I for one). I studied the Nazis to WW2 for three years at school and found it facinating (although I was a bit annoyed that we never studied them into WW2). On the side of that I countless books on the first and second world wars which I read on the side (received even more for Christmas), most are on the aviation side of things but a lot are also on the ground war (mostly Western Europe). I don't think that schools should stop teaching about Nazi Germany and WW2 as you can never get enough of it. Also remember that "History repeats itself" so those how no nothing/little about the past are more likely to end up in making it repeat itself than those who know about it and don't want it to happen again.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

either way though i believe it will happen again, hell it IS still happening, but that's a different topic............

we barely get tought anything about the second world war, everything we did was in two lessons, the first 1 hour lesson was to, in pairs, prepare a short speech on a WWII event they were given, the second lesson we gave the presentations (me and CC did the BoB, i bought in one of my videos and everything ), and that was it! most of the presentations couldn't have been more wrong if they'd tried, me and CC were trying not to laugh at some of the stuff we did a bit more on the causes of the second world war, sometimes people even have to ask me when it started! it's rediculous, people sometimes speak to me about events in medal of honour and games like that and they think they're experts on the war without even realising allot of the stuff in these games is made up! we have done a little bit more on WWI though.............

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by plan_D

I may be wrong, pbfoot, but I don't believe many (if any) of the European nations have national health systems. Maybe some of our Continental European members can call me on that? Adler?

Yes the Germans have an excellent health care system. Having lived in the United States and in Germany I have to say Germany has one of the finest health care systems around (we will see how bad Merckel ****s it up though). Basically if you live in Germany and have a job or are on government support you are covered by health insurence. I had reconstructive surgery on my shoulder done in Stuttgart and the costs were 25,000 Marks (yes this was before the Euro). The only bit that I actually paid for was my phone bills from the hospital.

The Germans actually have the best social system that I have ever seen. (yes they are a Socialist country as well) The German system also has flaws also though, as in all the forienger from the east and the middle east that come over and rape the system because the Germans wont tell them NO!