The Real Threat; Not Communism, but Big Gov't and the Left

Blackwatch · 12-27-2005, 12:19 PM

you know what, you are absolutely right....I am uninformed....but I know good and bad, right from wrong....I am very aware that the left within the US wants a 'elitist' government as men like me are too stupid to run their everyday lives and cannot be trusted to vote, or hold office, pay my taxes nor buy my own beer; BIG government will take care of all, from cradle to grave....the left and exteme left thinks of me as a uncouth and uneducated 'redneck' that lives in the 'flyover' parts of the US....all I am good for is to fight in wars....as the educated left finds the military within the US 'animalistic' and boorish....plus the left I have found within the US are cowards, who forget just who gave them the freedoms they split on very regularly....the soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen plus the women that sent those men to fight.....

So I advise you to make sure you understand what happens when you call a American 'redneck' uninformed....if you don't know, ask other Americans on here what a feud is.....example is the Hatfield/McCoy feud...

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 12-28-2005, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackwatch

you know what, you are absolutely right....I am uninformed....but I know good and bad, right from wrong....I am very aware that the left within the US wants a 'elitist' government as men like me are too stupid to run their everyday lives and cannot be trusted to vote, or hold office, pay my taxes nor buy my own beer; BIG government will take care of all, from cradle to grave....the left and exteme left thinks of me as a uncouth and uneducated 'redneck' that lives in the 'flyover' parts of the US....all I am good for is to fight in wars....as the educated left finds the military within the US 'animalistic' and boorish....plus the left I have found within the US are cowards, who forget just who gave them the freedoms they split on very regularly....the soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen plus the women that sent those men to fight.....

So I advise you to make sure you understand what happens when you call a American 'redneck' uninformed....if you don't know, ask other Americans on here what a feud is.....example is the Hatfield/McCoy feud...

Hey hello.... I am an American......And I happen to be a soldier in the US Army.......Ive been to combat also.......So I advise you to back off and quit with the insults......

trackend · 12-28-2005, 03:00 PM

Oh well I must be a commie then I have never voted conservative in my life nor will I on principal although I will defend the right of anyone to vote for whom so ever they wish to .
However it must be somewhat different in the states BW as i would never make such a sweeping statement such as those who are left wing are cowards. It would be the same as saying those in the right are hero's .
I would be interested if you could explain to me BW why you got out of your pram when Adler said you where uninformed. I thought your analogy of socialism was a bit harsh to say the least having said that I myself am not terribly well informed on the political scene in the US so I would be interested in others take on things.

FLYBOYJ · 12-28-2005, 03:14 PM

There are many in the US who despises the slightest inkling of socialism as defined by European standards - they place it with border line communism. Additionally those in the US who push a socialist agenda usually have another "leftist" agenda or motive behind their cause. (ex. Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton, Jane Fonda). You find little "middle ground" with these folks. You'll have some folks that think the government should regulate say the oil industry - they're called Socialists and eventually "Commies." You have others that want to save the whales, impose a 30% tax against anyone making over $200,000 a year, dismantle the military and socialize medicine, education, all big business - extreme the other way....

My opinion....

trackend · 12-28-2005, 04:01 PM

I respect your opinion FBJ,
Blair is classed as a socialist, more right wing than many we have had but the party he leads is still a socialist one . In general the rule of thumb in the UK is if you have lots of money vote Conservative they have always had policies that favour the wealthy if you don't have much money vote Labour as they tend to have policies that favour the poorer members of society,although they have changed over the last ten years to capture much of the middle ground floating voters that was the haunt on the Liberal party.
As for tax the basic rate is currently 22% for an income of £2000 - £32000 per annum after that its 40% which does make your pay pack squeak a bit, although with the allowances it comes out at around 35% for a married man,
I am still a believer in the national health service for all its faults I think this tends to be the view of many who's parents remember the days of the inability of people to pay the quack and the resultant early deaths and maladies that was the result it may be an old fashioned view, but then I'm old fashioned so what would you expect I even have a Wedgwood date stamp on me arse.

FLYBOYJ · 12-28-2005, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trackend

I respect your opinion FBJ,
Blair is classed as a socialist, more right wing than many we have had but the party he leads is still a socialist one . In general the rule of thumb in the UK is if you have lots of money vote Conservative they have always had policies that favour the wealthy if you don't have much money vote Labour as they tend to have policies that favour the poorer members of society,although they have changed over the last ten years to capture much of the middle ground floating voters that was the haunt on the Liberal party.
As for tax the basic rate is currently 22% for an income of £2000 - £32000 per annum after that its 40% which does make your pay pack squeak a bit, although with the allowances it comes out at around 35% for a married man,
I am still a believer in the national health service for all its faults I think this tends to be the view of many who's parents remember the days of the inability of people to pay the quack and the resultant early deaths and maladies that was the result it may be an old fashioned view, but then I'm old fashioned so what would you expect I even have a Wedgwood date stamp on me arse.

Yep - totally understand; here you're looking at about 11% from about $25,000 to $108,000, then it goes to 18%. At $200,000 it think it goes to 30%, but we have so many tax loopholes those on the upper tax bracket rarely pay that much - many of the loopholes are from business tax breaks and tax breaks because of investments. You could avoid paying the higher tax bracket by taking the money you would give to the government and investing it in a retirement or other tax deferred investment program. Many of the poor here don't fully understand this and that's what the politicians exploit during elections.

It's funny, if you told someone here who halfway knows who Tony Blair is that he is a socialists, they would look at you like you're nuts!

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 12-28-2005, 11:48 PM

Here is my take on the matter and why I said uninformed. Most European Countries have a socialist government. Most of them for the fact of the matter have a pretty good system set up and are not communists. Blair is not a Communist, Germany are not communists, Italy are not communists, etc. The way Blackwatch compared Socialism to Communism leeds me to believe that he has not lived under a Socialist system. Maybe Socialists in the US are just "undercover Communists" if you will, however that is not the case elsewhere. Having said that I prefer the US system of government however if one is going to make comparisons then one needs to understand both sides.

plan_D · 12-29-2005, 05:38 AM

It's just that a lot of people don't understand socialism, nor can they grasp the idea of mixed feelings in politics. It's always the person is right or left.

Now, I think most people on here gather that in most circumstances I'm quite extreme. Sometimes it's left, sometimes it's right ... I believe that the NHS is a great thing, but I don't think we should have even half as many foreigners in the country that we have. I think for the standard of living the taxes are acceptable, but we need a bigger military (We could pay for it, if we got rid of the damn Asylum seekers!) ..etc. etc. But a lot of people just can't grasp that ...one will hear me say the NHS is a good thing, and call me a socialist ... then another will hear me bad mouth the Middle-East and call me a Nazi ... hmm ..maybe I'm a National Socialist ...

- well, I actually argued with someone that Hitler wasn't a National Socialist in the meaning of the words once ...I think it was Stalin who actually said Hitler wasn't a Nazi ..he was just a lunatic - or something along those lines.

Anyway, I like the new conservative leader, Lee. It might be a show, but it seems he's actually willing, in part, to admit when an idea Labour has is good - and he even said that the parties should be working together to make a better Britain. But I think the mere fact he openly said; "Yeah, Labour, that's a good idea" is quite brave...and it shocked Blair! But, in the national elections I still voted Labour - 'cos Howard was a tit. How can he complain about immigrants ...when his family were Romanian immigrants!?

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 12-29-2005, 08:01 AM

Good post pD. I pretty much agree with you. And where you said that people dont understand socialism that also goes into the fact that people fear what they dont understand.

FLYBOYJ · 12-29-2005, 08:10 AM

Agree all the way!

Harvard · 12-30-2005, 07:41 PM

DerAdlerIstGelandet wrote:

Quote:

Good post pD. I pretty much agree with you. And where you said that people dont understand socialism that also goes into the fact that people fear what they dont understand.

This discussion is getting a little watered down from the points made earlier. My point is along the lines of the conservation of energy from physics. What you put into something is what you get out.

In Socialism, the money has to come from somewhere. People want their gov't to do things for them. Well, there's no free lunch. You need the money to pay for healthcare and other gov't services. Where does it come from? The taxpayers. You want more care, well it's coming out of your paycheck.

So here's the million dollar question: Why do people really want socialism? What's the real motivating factor? Why can't people be content with paying for insurance? The answer is people want other people to pay for it.

The ultimate thing about socialism is that it in reality takes money from the rich, and gives to the poor. It equalizes everything. You are giving the power to the gov't to make decisions with your money. Another point of interest: Why would a person who is doing well financially need socialism? Ask yourself that.

So no matter how you slice it, it's all about the money you've earned, and socialism deals with people who need things from others.

In a non-socialism system we pay minimal taxes so we can manage our own money. There's no sugar coating this. Let's recoginize it for what it is.

pbfoot · 12-30-2005, 07:52 PM

Not much gets by you Harvard but I'm not gonna stop the man who works at a job you wouldn't do although you might scoff at him because he is poor he and his family deserve an equal shot at living as long as you do maybe longer hopefully

Harvard · 12-30-2005, 09:45 PM

Hi pbfoot:

Thanks! I try to miss no opportunity to mention this, because so many people don't pay much attention to it. It appears to me people let the politicians have their own way.

plan_D · 12-31-2005, 02:01 AM

Ever thought, Harvard, that people might not be living just for money? Ever thought that the rich man might not mind paying extra tax so his fellow countrymen can have some decency of life? You may like the American system better than the British system, that is why you live there...and I live here.

I don't care that my taxes are higher than yours when it comes to things like this because we're forking out money to give others an equal chance in health-care. We're not sharing out all the money equally, we're sharing healthcare equally. And everyone has the right to good health.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 12-31-2005, 09:04 AM

Very well said pD.

Harvard I think you are trying to make something evil out of something that is not. The big thing you have in the United States is poverty. You dont see that as much over here, you know why, because the state helps people not be in poverty.

I dont understand why you try to make it out to be so bad. I just think that you do not understand the system either and are afraid of what it is. You dont want to fully understand it.