The Real Threat; Not Communism, but Big Gov't and the Left

pbfoot · 12-31-2005, 10:47 PM

well spoken PD I wish I be as clear

Harvard · 12-31-2005, 11:08 PM

Plan_D, I agree with you on all said:

So we agree that our gov'ts are all far too big, and top heavy. I'll even say that about the USA. In fact all the lawsuits, lack of intellignece, and lack of personal responsibility are a huge contributing factor to bigger gov't.

Like I've said earlier, the best thing we can do is fight growing gov't by writing congressmen and officials, and put whatever pressure possible on our government. To make it clear that certain gov't agendas will not be tolerated by the people.

I do think self gov't is possible in the tribal sense, if we had smarter people. My grandparents told me back in the 19th, and early 20th the US was far more self-governed. Just minimal gov't intervention such as utilities, and the like. I think a stronger more unified community could make a voice of solidarity heard, and which would be incredibly powerful if enough people felt that the gov't has gone too far.

plan_D · 01-01-2006, 02:21 AM

I cannot see how that would work. Most people are not smart. Giving responsability to the people would collapse the country in an instant. Giving responsability to the élite would be a better idea, but that's never going to happen.

I do not have enough faith in people to think in the same manner as you, Havard. Nor am I in any state of mind to let fellow countrymen rot because they can't pay the doctor.

Tribal rule still gives power to a centralised command. The only difference is there's many centralised commands, and if the country is still unified, it all strings up to the higher command. That's complex and a lot of people, with a lot of say, causes a lot of argument.

Blackwatch · 01-01-2006, 09:24 AM

"do you believe in democracy?"

First of all the U.S. is a REPUBLIC, not a democracy....so called 'liberals' (I refuse to call 'liberals' now by anything but what they are, communists/socialists) here want a 'elitist' government that controls all...i.e communist/socialist by dragonian law.

Second, most of Europe and Europeans in general show little or no pride in who and what they are....whatever the statis quo wants the population roll over and play dead with little or no thought of the long term consequences....there are many great and amazing people in Europe....but after 50 years of being bombarded by socialists and communists many, many people there simply are tired of politics....the exceptions are the former Warsaw Pact countries....give them time and the standard of living willing simply be amazing....

Harvard · 01-01-2006, 10:59 AM

Hi Blackwatch:

I'm glad you are fighting the status quo. I agree that democrats here in the US should really call themselves neo-socialists/communists. They are really that far out there. I will keep fighting big gov't by making my voice heard, and writing congressmen, etc.

marconi · 01-01-2006, 11:06 AM

Blackwatch,

Quote:

The United States is an example of a constitutional republic, with a government composed of and operating through a set of limited powers imposed by its design and enumerated in the United States Constitution. Specifically, the nation operates as a presidential democracy. There are three levels of government: federal, state, and local. Officials of each of these levels are either elected by eligible voters via secret ballot or appointed by other elected officials. Almost all electoral offices are decided in "first-past-the-post" elections, where a specific candidate who earns at least a plurality of the vote is elected to office, rather than a party being elected to a seat to which it may appoint an official. Americans enjoy almost universal suffrage from the age of 18 regardless of race, sex, or wealth. There are some limits, however: felons are disenfranchised and in some states former felons are likewise. Furthermore, the national representation of territories and the federal district of Washington, DC in Congress is limited: residents of the District of Columbia are subject to federal laws and federal taxes but their only Congressional representative is a non-voting delegate.

These links will help you understand what is the difference between democrasy and republic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 01-01-2006, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackwatch

I do not fear socialism, I despise it, along with communists....I do not make threats either.....socialism is part of the same old ways of thinking that prove they do not work..only capitalism has proven it works....it's ok for a socialist to insult me and say I am 'uninformed' and NO ONE critiques them/him/her, but when I state my opinion I am chastized....so be it....the poverity rate in the US is based largely on liberal left-wing economics that patiently have failed....

Funny I have not insulted you once. You seem to be the one throwing out insults, buts thats okay I will be adult about it. When I said you were uninformed it was a general statement about it because you really dont understand true Socialism. This obvious by your arguments because as others have stated they are nothing near the truth or how things are really done. Having lived under both a "Republic" and a "Socialism" country I understand both systems. Which system do I prefer, I prefer the US system but there is nothing wrong with a real Socialist government. For instance in Germany, free enterprise is welcome and encouraged. The Government will even help you set up your own business at little cost of your own. Howver the benifits that are recieved from the Government by just paying a little bit higher taxes outgain those that are recieved in a system like the United States has. In Germany however if you choose to have a private insurance or whatnot, you may do so and you are then placed in a different tax bracket.

As for the argument that only Capitilism works, that is false too. The governments of England, Germany, Italy, and most of the western Europe coutnries are working out just fine. And again it was the US Government that put the government into place in Germany and set it up.

So Blackwatch I have not insulted or chastised you. On the conterary I respect your opinions on this matter. Infact it is you that has chastises and insulted others when they state ther opinions.

Second before you state that Europeans have no pride in themselves, come to Europe because over here in Europe I think you will see that the pride and culture runs deeper and higher than what you are used to and what you are aware of. Visit Europe before you speak.....

Harvard · 01-01-2006, 02:31 PM

DerAdler Wrote:

Quote:

As for the argument that only Capitilism works, that is false too. The governments of England, Germany, Italy, and most of the western Europe coutnries are working out just fine. And again it was the US Government that put the government into place in Germany and set it up.

Are you sure the US didn't just set it up, and the Germans modified it?

If it was indeed set up as socialist, which I doubt, we need to look at the context in which it is done. It was probably done to stabilize Germany as quickly as possible after the second World War. So that the U.S. could get out right away.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 01-01-2006, 02:35 PM

Either way the government is working just fine and it is a socialist government. Dont fear what you dont know, learn about it.

pbfoot · 01-01-2006, 03:27 PM

Harvard if the US set up a socialist government in Germany so they could get out of germany quick after war you better let DerAdler know so that he may return home

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 01-01-2006, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbfoot

Harvard if the US set up a socialist government in Germany so they could get out of germany quick after war you better let DerAdler know so that he may return home

Good point however pbfoot, however the occupation of Germany ended in 1995.

Harvard · 01-01-2006, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Either way the government is working just fine and it is a socialist government. Dont fear what you dont know, learn about it.

I don't care about Germany, because it's not my problem. So far we've debated the issue logically. I'm using general guidelines that you can use for your self. We've gone over it again and again. The bigger the gov't, the bigger the problem. Analyze it for yourself. I question my own country's leadership, because it's my duty as a citizen. We need to hold our own bureaucrats accountable, and always fight new more restrictive laws. In addition fight bigger gov't iteslf.

plan_D · 01-02-2006, 12:50 AM

Your fight against bigger government should not encompass attacks against people who believe in their system then. You seem to believe people are smart and capable of running a limited system, almost tribal system, but people aren't smart.

And Blackwatch, shut up. You're an irritating turd. You haven't been able to answer me anything but bullsh*t smelling rabble, and frankly it's irritating. At least Havard has the freakin' ideas, albeit I might not agree with him on everything. That most likely revolving around the different situations of state. And there's something else a lot people seem to fail to appreciate.

marconi · 01-02-2006, 06:35 AM

Harvard,
Not all socialistic idias are bad.And not all capitalistic idias are good.But they compensate one another quite well and it would be good if we find that compromise which would suit us the best.

01-02-2006, 07:46 AM

Thanks guys for some interesting Ideas and points of view a lot seems to rotate around what our perceptions of a Liberal,Socialist,Communist etc, government is. For myself I have never seen a communist government, as what was proposed by Marx etc was to me an untenable idea that was never realized. The USSR, China etc in my opinion where or are dictator ships. That said In the case of China I would have been surprised if anything but some form of dictatorship could have pulled such a hugely populated and diverse nation out of the medieval mess that they had. But I believe it is time for them to move towards a democracy unfortunately in these type of nations there is no rein on the influence that the leaders wield and being power greedy they are reluctant to let go.
I believe a nations wealth is judge on its poorest people so I would look to Scandinavia as amongst the areas with the highest overall standard of living.
I personally do care about the politics of Germany and all the other nations Harvard, the world is a very small place these days and instability, fiscal & government policies of other nations send out ripples that effects us all.
If the Yen,Euro,Dollar,Pound etc went to the wall we would all suffer the consequences. The Wall street crash effected every nation on the planet
and I'm sure had a big influence on the beginnings of the Nazi rise to power.
So in my humble opinion it is vital that we all take an interest in each others political situations. However Harvard I agree with you that governments have been getting too big for their boots and chopping out a few dozen Quangos and getting them back to what they are elected to do would not go amiss.