Rumsfield gone

[Erich]

that is exactly what will happen. They would go around freely in open topped pick-ups during the daylight if there is no air cover to be concerned about, waving multi-colored flags yelling jihad on us

[Emac44]

Originally Posted by Erich

for your info. the Vietnam conflict was never a war it was a police action like Korea, it was simple enough and dried up the youth of our country including myself. Also we left Nam so no-one won certainly not the South viets that was certain. Big hands were at play and kept us from decisive victory, and the quitter attitude brought what was left of us home ......... to have bottles, crap and whatever thought of dumped on our weary necks

That is fair enough comment about the Allies seeing it as a police action and the many wasted events that occured in Vietnam. But by no means am I casting any derisive comments towards those who served in Vietnam they like any veteran have my absolute admiration and respect. But the North Vietnamese saw it as the 10,000 Day War and not a so called Police Action. But its no point arguing what the historical event was called. Funny you mentioned Korea. As i was thinking to myself yesterday, If as has been quoted via the media that Iraq was divided into 3 sections as to what has been proposed for example Shia Sunni and Kurd sections of Iraq. I know the Kurdistan section of Iraq is somewhat well maintained and somewhat peaceful but the proposed sections under Sunni and Shia I would think we would be creating another Korean type episode, which as we all know the Korean experiment of north and south has come back to haunt us for over 50 years. But unlike Korea we would have also in the mix nations like Iran and Syria causing more problems who would be funding diffferent militia groups and radical islamic fundamentalist on a daily basis. I just don't see splitting the Iraqi Nation into 3 vastly different group territory system would work. The Kurds would be the exception to the rule but Shia and Sunni would be the sticking and stumbling point. I am using the 2 Koreas as an example but same could be said about a North and a South Vietnam where as it was same people but 2 different governments respectfuly funded by different political ideologies and different nations at the time. Plus with the human element of greed corruption and self serving interests. But unlike Korea and Vietnam you would have to include in Iraq the religious intolerance and fundamentalism in both sections of Iraq under Shia and Sunni. Makes things very complicated and very difficult to work with. I just think the seperating of the Iraqi nation into 3 sections is a recipe for failure if we use the same idea as to the Korean and Vietnam experiences from history as a guide line and example. This is just my opinion and as i see it from my own perspectives. However we as Allied Nations are still concentrating on the Iraq issue alone. The problems of Afghanistan The Philippines Thailand and the Sudan are still concurrent issues and problems which still have to be addressed and also problems in Indonesia with fundamentalist groups in that country as well. Plus with the threat of international terrorism that can come to our own shores which we still have to safe guard against. To me the problem is still the common denominator and that is radical islamic fundamentalism to which is the area of where we should be concentrating our efforts but over a global arena and not just Iraq on its own. As Iraq as i see it is just a part of the complication of world politics which effect the Middle East. Once again gentlemen this is just my opinion and how i see it. Hopefuly some one may come up with a well founded solution to the concurrent world political problems but it just hasn't come about as yet if it ever does. god I feel really depressed now but i am not going to cut my wrists over it hahaha. Just ponder one day if we will ever see a solution that is exceptable and works

[syscom3]

The path Bush set down for us in Iraq is a failure at this time.

Either we send enough troops into the country to get the job done, or we have to face facts and remove ourselves from a winless situation.

Our treasury is not an endless pit for us to pour money into this country

And we should not put our troops into a dangerous situation where they could be maimed or killed for nothing.

The wisest course of action is to let the iraqi people once and for all, if they cant live peacefully amongst themselves, then there is nothing anyone can do for them.

And most importantly, WE CANNOT SAVE THE IRAQI PEOPLE FROM THEMSELVES.

[Emac44]

Originally Posted by syscom3

The path Bush set down for us in Iraq is a failure at this time.

Either we send enough troops into the country to get the job done, or we have to face facts and remove ourselves from a winless situation.

Our treasury is not an endless pit for us to pour money into this country

And we should not put our troops into a dangerous situation where they could be maimed or killed for nothing.

The wisest course of action is to let the iraqi people once and for all, if they cant live peacefully amongst themselves, then there is nothing anyone can do for them.

And most importantly, WE CANNOT SAVE THE IRAQI PEOPLE FROM THEMSELVES.

TRUE ON ALL COUNTS SYS AND MOSTLY I AGREE WITH YOU ABOUT THE COST FACTOR IN LIVES AND MONEY. However we are on this road sys and unfortunately it may just well blow up in our faces as it is now. and it isn't just the Iraqi people being saved from themselves with other foriegn operatives working in Iraq against the idea of democracy in Iraq or the Iraqi people themselves. I know there are various factions striving for their own piece of power base as well and it is somewhat confusing who is who at times with each various faction group causing mayhem death and destruction but we are on this road sys and we do have to finish it what ever the outcome is. but as i have already stated its just not Iraq its a myrid of problems seperate yet unified. and if i see it from where i sit. if we don't as Allied Nations prevail in Iraq or Afghanistan or Sudan or even Philippines we have lost before we even started, The worse case scenerio in Iraq i see is that the civil war begins as soon as we pull our troops out Iran and Syria become directly involved. War could spread to Kurdistan and some dimwit decides to involve Israel Jordan and possibley Eygpt. I think sys and this is my opinion only if we do not do anything it has the greatest possibley of spreading out of control like a scrub fire through the entire Middle East. Look sys this is just how i view it. I have no source to back it up just the way i see it, which you could either agree with or dismiss. I just see there are no easy solutions and that eventually and hopefuly some one may eventually be abled to come up with an idea that could possibley work. i just don't know what the idea could be which i admit readily to you. but i know pulling out and counting our loses isn't one of the options i would take. iam just thinking sys we can agree to disagree on various discussions on this debate

[mkloby]

Originally Posted by Emac44

TRUE ON ALL COUNTS SYS AND MOSTLY I AGREE WITH YOU ABOUT THE COST FACTOR IN LIVES AND MONEY. However we are on this road sys and unfortunately it may just well blow up in our faces as it is now. and it isn't just the Iraqi people being saved from themselves with other foriegn operatives working in Iraq against the idea of democracy in Iraq or the Iraqi people themselves. I know there are various factions striving for their own piece of power base as well and it is somewhat confusing who is who at times with each various faction group causing mayhem death and destruction but we are on this road sys and we do have to finish it what ever the outcome is. but as i have already stated its just not Iraq its a myrid of problems seperate yet unified. and if i see it from where i sit. if we don't as Allied Nations prevail in Iraq or Afghanistan or Sudan or even Philippines we have lost before we even started, The worse case scenerio in Iraq i see is that the civil war begins as soon as we pull our troops out Iran and Syria become directly involved. War could spread to Kurdistan and some dimwit decides to involve Israel Jordan and possibley Eygpt. I think sys and this is my opinion only if we do not do anything it has the greatest possibley of spreading out of control like a scrub fire through the entire Middle East. Look sys this is just how i view it. I have no source to back it up just the way i see it, which you could either agree with or dismiss. I just see there are no easy solutions and that eventually and hopefuly some one may eventually be abled to come up with an idea that could possibley work. i just don't know what the idea could be which i admit readily to you. but i know pulling out and counting our loses isn't one of the options i would take. iam just thinking sys we can agree to disagree on various discussions on this debate

I echo your sentiments. I do think that the economic factor is way underplayed - particularly by the republican party. Deficit spending is not a very good thing...