Russia vs. Estonia

plan_D · 10-23-2007, 06:52 AM

Russia probably doesn't care; they just want another excuse to flex their meagre muscle. They've invited the British media into their airforce bases to show off their Bears and Blackjack.

It's getting close to the time that the West should sort the Gulf out quick, and divert attention to Russia once again.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 10-23-2007, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by majorwoody10

..people are funny creatures ...

Now that I will agree with.

majorwoody10 · 10-25-2007, 07:46 AM

are the russians still a big threat to the west ? ,i heard they had kinda let their military hardware go to seed ever since ol boris yeltsin got liquored up and peed on their tank treads in redski square .

plan_D · 10-25-2007, 07:55 AM

The Russian hardware is not as numerous as it was nor is it comparable to Western technology. Even with those facts the Russian military poses a threat to the West because of the West's unwillingness to go to war.

The perfect example is Vietnam, before the war in Vietnam would you openly say that Vietnam had a chance against the U.S military? I don't think anybody would but the media in the U.S and Western war weariness ended that war early with a U.S defeat.

If the Russians could inflict heavy loss on European and American soldiers then the West would be quickly opting for peace - even in World War II the West were in no way comparable to the German and Soviet war machines in being able to take losses ... we just can't stomach it.

If you take the Western culture out of the equation then the U.S would be able to defeat every nation on this planet in a conventional war, with ease.

majorwoody10 · 11-05-2007, 01:35 AM

i think we westerners would be willing to spill alot more of our own blood if we were fighting a ruthless invader on our own soil .we yanks spilled plenty at antietim and you brits spilled even more in flanders which i dont think was even part of the UK at the time....

plan_D · 11-05-2007, 03:01 AM

Flanders!?! You are comparing a war that happened 90 years ago, to today?

majorwoody10 · 11-16-2007, 12:36 PM

no silly , the paintball battle at ned flanders back lot in leeds ...ok so there wasnt that much blood ,but there was some serious briusing ,contusions and black and blue marks ..

esto · 04-11-2008, 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Graves of soldies should remain where they are as a memorial.

Regarding the movement of war graves: I can understand and agree to an extent the feelings that war graves shouldn't be moved. However, the the case of the Bronze Soldier, this has not been about the soldiers, but a political issue from day one. The soldiers all died in combat in 1944, but the monument was erected in 1947 in the center of Tallinn where no street fighting took place, which means the bodies were dug up elsewhere and carted into the city center for the purpose of a monument. To relocate them with a proper burial to a war cemetary is not that out of line.

...to shed some more light on the rest of the story...In recent years, the monument has become a lightening-rod for Estonian and Russian radicals. Both sides had used it as a symbol to vent their anger at each other, so much that in the last few years the area around the monument had to be cordoned off and a 24-hour police presence posted there to keep the peace. It had become a festering situation with no real clear answer.

Since all this was taking place in front of the national library, which is basically in the center of the capital, the Estonian government decided the best solution was to move the monument and re-bury the bodies in a nearby military cemetary. Normally, this kind of decision wouldn't be that big of a deal, but given it's allready politicized nature, and the venting point for Estonians and Russians, things boiled over. After 50 years of communist rule ended in Estonia, it's going to take a while for Estonians and Russians to come to terms and see eye-to-eye on some historical things. Or at the minimum, how to live together freely and peacefully.

The Russian media coverage was relentless and extremely provocative. It was the leading news story every night for months on end. The hatred for Estonia became unbeleivable. Duma leaders made trips to Tallinn with a Russian media circus in tow to score political points back home. "Nashi", a radical political youth movement (often dubbed the "Putin Youth") also flocked there, provoking more hatred and starting riots.

By comparison, inside Russia, the same types of grave relocation happened several times over the last few years, but with practically no media coverage at all. Here is one example from near Moscow...and the bodies were even lost in the relocation!

The St. Petersburg Times - News - Mystery Swirls in Khimki Over World War Remains

Quote:

The World War II pilots' remains were dug up at a memorial in Khimki, north of Moscow, last week for reburial at a different location on Victory Day. But they seem to have disappeared.
The Khimki administration, which authorized the reburial, said it did not know where the remains were, but thought they might be at the morgue in Skhodnya, a nearby town, Noviye Izvestia reported Friday.

Calls to the administration went unanswered on Friday.

But a spokeswoman for the morgue said by telephone Friday: "We don't have them."

Vyacheslav Nyrkov, director of Ritual, the Khimki agency that exhumed the remains, refused to comment on their whereabouts.

The designer of a new monument for the pilots, Alexander Mustafin, said he thought the remains had been hidden to calm tensions.

Khimki allowed the reburial after war veterans complained that prostitutes were desecrating the site along Leningradskoye Shosse. Authorities also want to widen the highway.

Dozens of Communist supporters held a protest over the reburial at the site last Sunday.

"These ashes belong to heroes who defended our motherland. They shouldn't have been dug up just because someone doesn't like the monument at this place," one of the protesters, Pavel Tarasov, said by telephone Friday.

Tarasov, an aide to Communist State Duma Deputy Valery Rashkin, accused authorities of double standards, citing the current uproar over Estonia's decision to remove a Soviet war memorial and exhume soldiers there.

"At least in Estonia this is largely covered by the media so people can come out and voice their protest, but in Russia all is done sneakily," said Olga Ivanova, another participant in the Sunday protest.