Is there a double standard in the Middle East?

[Hunter368]

Eric,

I hope this is not to much to ask (it might seem like a big question but here it goes). I want your opinion on the middle east in general, Israel (is it good/bad right/wrong), Muslim countires (general).

1)I ask you b/c you have been there and I find that you give as much of a unbiased opinion as you can find (meaning no insult to the other people here that have been there also), you seem less extreme them some. I just want to hear from you what you think of Israel, from start to present. Good or bad or just or legal, anything.

2) What do you think of Muslim countries in the middle east. What do you think is the answer to the problem with dealing with them. (its not just killing them or nuking them etc) I am talking long term solution.

I realize that this is a very big question and much can be written on the subjects but plz try if you would. I think it would help many people here understand better from a person that is calm, reasonable, intelligent and that has been there. Again I am sorry if I am asking to much from you with this post. Thanks Mark

[Delusional]

I'd like to hear Erich's thoughts as well.

[Hunter368]

Eric and Erich are two different people. I am talking to Eric (aka Evanglider), Delusional he goes or answers to Eric (his real name) or Evan or Evanglider. Erich is a different Mod here.

[evangilder]

Wow, that is a tall order. Israel is the only real democracy in the middle east. They take a hard line on some issues, but it is out of self preservation. They are an island in the midst of a sea of countries that would like nothing more than to see them eradicated. Historically, biblically and archaelogoically, you can find that that area has been the home of Jews and Muslims alike. Jerusalem is a holy site for Christians, Muslims and Jews alike. This presents a big problem as disagreement over the city and it's antiquities are an ever present problem. If you take a look at who had controlled Jerusalem and how they have done so over the years, Israel has been the only country that has kept it as an open city for all.

Israelis are an interesting lot. They live ever vigilant of threats aganist them while keeping an amazing sense of humor to it. Israeli politics is an interesting animal of itself. The way they form majorities is through "secret handshake" agreements between different factions. When something gets haywire, you will see a lot of backroom deals go on to keep a coalition government together. I could go on for a long time about it as there is a whole lot more to it.

Solving the problems between Israel and Muslim nations is not simple. These 2 have been fighting for thousands of years and there will never be a quick fix. I do know that extremism by both sides is problematic. Couple that with Islam never reaching an age of enlightenment, and you have problems that will remain. There is very little value place on human life in Muslim nations. I have witnessed groups of Arabs approach a minefield and without pause send their child in to clear a path. If the child dies, they can make another one. Shocked? You bet, I was appalled. In this case, I breathed a sigh of relief that the child made it through unscathed.

Education would certainly be a huge help as a lot of them are semi-literate, with the only book getting serious study being the Koran. They have very little outside influence and get spoon-fed most of their info from the Mullahs, whose word is taken as the word of God himself. They unquestioningly take in the information and to speak freely is forbidden, especially if their thoughts have any contradiction to the word. The case in Afghanistan where the gentleman who converted from Islam to Christianity was on trial with a punishment for death is the kind of mindset that we are faced with.

What happened in the territories after the evacuation of Israelis was unreal. There was a wealthy Jewish businessman who bought some greenhouses from the Israelis for use by the Palestinians once they acquired the land. What did the Palestinians do? They destroyed it with other things that the Jews had used. They desecrated the Hebrew Temples as well. Mind you, they had already been "un-consecrated" prior to their evacuation, but the mindset again shows the extremism that kills any progress for peace.

And don't think for a decond that if Israel was gone from the Middle East that there would be peace. You have a wide range of formerly nomadic tribes that typically are Shia or Sunni Muslim. Without the Jews to fight, they would turn against each other in a heartbeat. There are other smaller sects involved as well, including the Kurds (not sure if they follow Shiite or Sunni Islam though, have had no real exposure to Kurds).

In one way, Saddam was good for Iraq in that he ruled with an iron fist and kept the squabbling between tribes to a minimum by using fear as a weapon, like Tito in Yugoslavia. Bad blood between sects takes generations to remedy, if it can be done at all.

[Delusional]

I know that. I was saying that I would also like Erich to answer your questions, if possible, as well. Sorry if my wording was not very clear. He has been to that area too, of course, and also seems mostly unbiased. I thought they were such good questions that you posed that others might answer them to the best of their ability as well.

[syscom3]

Good post Evans.

[Hunter368]

Thank you Eric I see that my judgment was not misplaced, nice job. I think after reading that some here (including myself) might better understand the area and its politics. I can see the truth (and nothing else) in your words, thank you.


When you were in Muslim areas what were the people like? Not its governments or soldiers I mean just reg folk on the street. Were they hateful or kind, depressed or happy, proud or shameful, what were the average person like in the these Muslim areas? Do the average person also hate the West or just its governments. Plz share your knowledge.

Thank you again for your help ( I know it was a big question but I think I asked the right person).

Mark

[evangilder]

It really depends on where you are as to how you are viewed. Like major cities in any country, there will have been previous visitors that have been idiots that may jade how others look at you. For the most part, I tried to be respectful and not do something that may offend. I was, in general, treated with respect in kind. They are usually pretty stand-offish as would be expected as I look nothing like them with my phosphorescent Irish skin and light hair. My Arabic was extremely limited and likely barely intelligable to them. It was a more cordial situation with limited conversation, usually on the surface.To go beyond that was risking an international incident, which I could ill afford in the environment.

That being said, the average Arab was okay, but I never would turn my back to them. You never know if that smiling, friendly guy was waiting for you to turn your back so he could plunge a knife into it. I know that may sound jaded, but that was an unfortunate reality of the time and place. No matter how respectful I could be, I was still an outsider and an infidel.

[Hunter368]

Originally Posted by evangilder

It really depends on where you are as to how you are viewed. Like major cities in any country, there will have been previous visitors that have been idiots that may jade how others look at you. For the most part, I tried to be respectful and not do something that may offend. I was, in general, treated with respect in kind. They are usually pretty stand-offish as would be expected as I look nothing like them with my phosphorescent Irish skin and light hair. My Arabic was extremely limited and likely barely intelligable to them. It was a more cordial situation with limited conversation, usually on the surface.To go beyond that was risking an international incident, which I could ill afford in the environment.

That being said, the average Arab was okay, but I never would turn my back to them. You never know if that smiling, friendly guy was waiting for you to turn your back so he could plunge a knife into it. I know that may sound jaded, but that was an unfortunate reality of the time and place. No matter how respectful I could be, I was still an outsider and an infidel.

I don't think you are being jaded in anyway. Damn I would not turn my back on people in the North End (poor area of town) for a second. i remember going camping up north (northern canada) and having to stop at several small small settlements (largely Natives living there) and I would not let my wife or daugther out of the car while I went into the bar/ hotels to ask for directions. You (as I was) was basing your actions on your gut feelings, nothing wrong with that. I have nothing against Natives (having lived in Northern Canada for about half my life) I know them well, most are fine people but some when they see a White man and maybe having a few beers might not like him being in his town/ bar/ area. I lived in one small town in northern Canada (pop about 15,000) and guys would kick the living crap out of anyone new in the bar just for something to do that night. I seen that many times (I knew personally one well known NHL goon now retired thats what he and his friends did alot) he was one bad dude. I seen him kick one guy right in the face with cowboy boots on, ouch. They could be real azzholes at times. I am glad I do not live there now, what a **** hole town. Nice to visit (stay out of the bars at night) but never live there again.

[lesofprimus]

Originally Posted by Hunter368

I knew personally one well known NHL goon now retired thats what he and his friends did alot) he was one bad dude. I seen him kick one guy right in the face with cowboy boots on, ouch.

That wouldnt have happened to be Bob Probert, would it???

I've spent as much time in the Middle East as anyone here, have been in too many firefights to count, and have tried to forget so many things that alot of it is a blur...... I would not and did not trust any of the Muslims or Islamics that I ran across in any of my travels/engagements.... Every one of them was a suspected militant.... I was in Iraq when the average citizen wasnt waving an American Flag....

I did not like the average Muslim, and the average Muslim didnt like me.... They wished my soul into eternal damnation everytime they saw the flag on my shoulder or the boots on my feet....

The thing about knowing more than the average Joe about Enemy Intel is that it really makes u suspect EVERYTHING and EVERYONE.... Ask Erich and Eric and Joe and Adler and half a dozen other ex-combat qualified members here.....

Old habits die hard.....

[Erich]

so shall I try and give my viewpoint on this or ?

Eric has done well, the way he has seen it. Much of my time was in service at night seeing a different perspective but yet when I had relatives visit as we were casual out in day time visiting "holy" sites there was a different aura around the Palestinians. they were very kind and even witty and the cute children were forced to sell post cards or cheap pottery to the "rich Americans". Oh how I truly wanted to bless those kids with a US $ 50.00 bill with the hope it was going to be theirs for some sort of future but in reality would be taken from them as soon as they entered their home.
Interesting enough during the day when I had my play clothes on we were treated with respect by the Palestinians but for the israelis it was a different mode, one of caution and non-trust.........not much has changed since the early 1980's really ....

I'll share more later when I can think clearly; bad day for me today

[Hunter368]

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

That wouldnt have happened to be Bob Probert, would it???

I've spent as much time in the Middle East as anyone here, have been in too many firefights to count, and have tried to forget so many things that alot of it is a blur...... I would not and did not trust any of the Muslims or Islamics that I ran across in any of my travels/engagements.... Every one of them was a suspected militant.... I was in Iraq when the average citizen wasnt waving an American Flag....

I did not like the average Muslim, and the average Muslim didnt like me.... They wished my soul into eternal damnation everytime they saw the flag on my shoulder or the boots on my feet....

The thing about knowing more than the average Joe about Enemy Intel is that it really makes u suspect EVERYTHING and EVERYONE.... Ask Erich and Eric and Joe and Adler and half a dozen other ex-combat qualified members here.....

Old habits die hard.....

It was,

Ken Baumgartner, he was the toughest guy (and I know guys that are in special forces, anti terrorist groups in the military etc) I ever met personally and mean as a pitbull. But of course he was 6'1 and about 225 lbs and knew how to throw punches and could take a punch to. Damn he was tough as nails.

627 NHL games, 50 pts, 2125 pim he fought all the tough guys in his time. Was he as tough as Bob Probert? nope But damn close which makes him alot tougher guy than I would ever like to dance with.

Side note Bob was my fav tough guy ever. I loved to watch Bob. I loved the shirts back then that said, " Give blood fight Probert". That was a classic all time NHL line. He could score goals to, 62 pts one year and made the all star team once. Not bad.

Here is a couple pics of Ken "The Bomber" Baumgartner in action.

[Delusional]

Erich, you're a good soul, I think.

So sorry you had a bad day and can't wait to read more of your thoughts on the topic.

[lesofprimus]

The Bomber was a B-rated fighter at best, and fought like one too..... He took more punches than a 1986 Everlast Punching Bag at Gold's Gym....

But, to give him credit, he definatly could fight, and he fought the other B-raters quite effectively....

Bob Nystrom is my favorite, although Probert is/was/will be forever the best Pugilist the sport has/will ever know....

[lesofprimus]

Erich, you're a good soul, I think.

I think... Yep, I'm pretty sure..... Oh oh, here it comes..................