Top Brit General Slams Rumsfeld

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

Ya know - all the finger pointing about Iraq, who did wrong and who's fault it is for the current situation, one group has to be held responsible as well - the people of Iraq.

I agree completely Joe.

[ToughOmbre]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

Ya know - all the finger pointing about Iraq, who did wrong and who's fault it is for the current situation, one group has to be held responsible as well - the people of Iraq.

No doubt about it

TO

[renrich]

Flyboy, I see your point about the people in Iraq and their embracing of democracy or not but I don't think you can compare South Viet Nam with South Korea or for that matter Kuwait. After the peace accords were signed at Panmumjon the US left a shield of soldiers to protect S Korea and the N Koreans were not able to destabalise the situation because there were no sizable number of insurgents in the country. When the US pulled out of S Vietnam they left no presence behind in a country which already had a large insurgency(the VC) and on top of that the US Congress further pulled the rug out from the government by withdrawing aid and funding for the S Viet military. We continued to send material and money to the ROK after 1953 and still do. As for Kuwait, they already had a semblance of a democratic type of government before Saddam invaded and I don't believe they had the different religious groups(Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds) to contend with nor the outside countries such as Iran and Syria sending fanatics in to foment revolution.

[The Basket]

Iraq was not really a country in the first place. It was invented by the good ol British Empire.

A country works best with one common language one flag and one religeon. That's why Japan and Germany were able to survive defeat and pull through.

I think Iraq is like Yugoslavia in that it is artificial held together by a dictator. As soon as dictator goes it all falls apart.

My view is that Iraq will not work and like Yugoslvia will have to split into 3. And I doubt if that solution will be any more popular than trying to keep it together.

Britain had to go through wars and disasters to be a democracy today. Imposing democracy on a society which has not advanced from tribes and extreme religion is just not going to work.

If Gen Mike Jackson was ignored then British forces were simply doing the American plan. I would be very annoyed if all British criticisms were ignored and British Generals sent our troops in not believing that a good outcome can come out of this.

[mkloby]

Originally Posted by The Basket

Iraq was not really a country in the first place. It was invented by the good ol British Empire.

A country works best with one common language one flag and one religeon. That's why Japan and Germany were able to survive defeat and pull through.

I think Iraq is like Yugoslavia in that it is artificial held together by a dictator. As soon as dictator goes it all falls apart.

My view is that Iraq will not work and like Yugoslvia will have to split into 3. And I doubt if that solution will be any more popular than trying to keep it together.

Britain had to go through wars and disasters to be a democracy today. Imposing democracy on a society which has not advanced from tribes and extreme religion is just not going to work.

If Gen Mike Jackson was ignored then British forces were simply doing the American plan. I would be very annoyed if all British criticisms were ignored and British Generals sent our troops in not believing that a good outcome can come out of this.

That's a good point on Iraq's origin. Not being a homogenious nation makes the establishment of a state much more difficult - not to mention a democratic state. This is especially true as democracy tends to flourish and take root best in a more stable socioeconomic environment.

The Basket - don't forget the Brit generals did not actually send the troops in. They do not make policy. The civilian leaders, however, did.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by renrich

Flyboy, I see your point about the people in Iraq and their embracing of democracy or not but I don't think you can compare South Viet Nam with South Korea or for that matter Kuwait. After the peace accords were signed at Panmumjon the US left a shield of soldiers to protect S Korea and the N Koreans were not able to destabalise the situation because there were no sizable number of insurgents in the country. When the US pulled out of S Vietnam they left no presence behind in a country which already had a large insurgency(the VC) and on top of that the US Congress further pulled the rug out from the government by withdrawing aid and funding for the S Viet military.

Very true but we left more than enough equipment to allow the South Vietnamese to stand on their own two feet and they failed miserably, mainly due to mis-management and corruption.

Originally Posted by renrich

We continued to send material and money to the ROK after 1953 and still do. As for Kuwait, they already had a semblance of a democratic type of government before Saddam invaded and I don't believe they had the different religious groups(Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds) to contend with nor the outside countries such as Iran and Syria sending fanatics in to foment revolution.

But the bottom line, the people wanted their sovereignty - it wasn't being bought or bribed away like SVN and Iraq....

Originally Posted by mkloby

That's a good point on Iraq's origin. Not being a homogenious nation makes the establishment of a state much more difficult - not to mention a democratic state. This is especially true as democracy tends to flourish and take root best in a more stable socioeconomic environment.

Very correct, this situation doesn't help matters and its beyond comprehension why the brainiacs who have placed our forces into a "police action" did see this...

[trackend]

Tribalism whether reiligious or ethnic has been the continent of Africas problem of thousands of years, its just the weapons that have advanced and even then its the outside thats supplied most of them (its chuck a spear or chuck a grenade) so I cant see stabilisation on the continent ever happening while they lack tolerance of each other and the rights of the individual. A nations wealth is how it treats its poorest people and in Africa thats pritty badly.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by The Basket

I think Iraq is like Yugoslavia in that it is artificial held together by a dictator. As soon as dictator goes it all falls apart.

My view is that Iraq will not work and like Yugoslvia will have to split into 3. And I doubt if that solution will be any more popular than trying to keep it together.

That is a really good point.

Having been deployed to both Kosovo (and other parts of the former Yugoslavia) and to Iraq as well I can certainly see the comparisons.

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

Is that cartoon from this war or Gulf War I?

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Soundbreaker Welch?

Is that cartoon from this war or Gulf War I?

No - its from about 6 months ago....

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

Thanks!

It reminds of an artist's cartoons of the first Gulf War.

[Negative Creep]

I was chatting to a Royal Marine last night who'd just come back. To be honest, he didn't have a lot of positives to say about the Americans, saying he felt they were completely unorganised and trigger happy. Of course this was only one person's opinion, but interesting to hear nonetheless

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I find that interesting as well since most Brits are not anywhere near where the Americans are based at in Iraq.

[majorwoody10]

hindsight is a wonderful thing ,war is always a gamble ,if gw and rummy had been succesful in starting the first ever arab democracy , all these finger pointers would be saying " yup ,i was there , i helped make it happen " now that its a big snafu , its all " see , i told you so " remember the oil for food / palaces attempt , that was diplomacy , it didnt work for **** either ..i dont think there is ever going to be any winning the hearts and minds in any of those flyblown islamist sandholes ..sadams noose and trunchion method of govt clearly works the best ...

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

In his defense however Rummie was warned by his own Generals that he was taking the wrong direction before it even started. When they disagreed with him, the "retired" and were replaced by people who agreed with him.