US politicians honor ISLAM

[evangilder]

Once again, you miss the point. When the government condones the removal of Christian and other religious symbols, while honoring Islam, it sets a dangerous precedent. Freedom of religion means ALL religions. It does not mean setting a preference level because a religion scares you.

If they want to make it a religious-less society, then we need to remove all crosses, stars of David, Hais, Crescent moons and any other symbols of religion from ALL buildings that can be seen by the public. Then we can be like a dingy gray Soviet collective. See what I mean? When they ban anything to do with Christmas in public schools and buildings, but allow the observance of Ramadan, there is something seriously wrong with that.

And for the record, I don't get my news from CNN as you accused me of in a previous post. I have a variety of world wide resources to get my information, some of it not public. So you are very wrong in even stating that I am mis-informed. Jumping to conclusions? Think again.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Well said Eric! I could not agree more.

[mkloby]

Kris - you claim that it is about time that the US really becomes a secular state... think about this. The majority of Americans OPPOSE the idea of a strict separation of Church and state. It is organizations such as the ACLU and other special interest groups which are the battering ram for this ill supported concept. What you have is the vast minority attempting to change the culture, customs, and government a nation against the will of the majority. Tyranny? I'll let you be the judge.

America has not lost her Christian soul like much of Europe has in the name of "enlightenment." Another reason why people must think long and hard beyond the issue of Iraq if they are going to drop a vote for the democratic party. They may be voting to change our way of life without even realizing it.

Also - I understand where you are coming from when you say that by the US honoring Islam it takes some truth out of the words of Imams and such that speak of the US as the enemy. With regard to Arabic culture, it seems as though the only thing they respect is the sword - not sweet lullabies which they widely view as a form of weakness. I'd like to live in peace, but I'm afraid it's going to have to be the sword.

What really bothers me is the US gov't has so much important SH*T to do - yet they waste time and taxpayer money with this crap.

[Civettone]

Originally Posted by evangilder

Once again, you miss the point. When the government condones the removal of Christian and other religious symbols, while honoring Islam, it sets a dangerous precedent.

I now understand that it can be interpreted that way, that it seems that Islam is being favoured and Christianity being set back, just for the sake of political correctness.

If they want to make it a religious-less society, then we need to remove all crosses, stars of David, Hais, Crescent moons and any other symbols of religion from ALL buildings that can be seen by the public.

True, although public buildings is not the same as buildings that can be seen by the public. And that's not what a secular state is about.
If they however would allow muslim symbols in public buildings, I would say you were right. This is however not the case. All Congress did was saying it has respect for Islam and honors it. Is there any reason why I should think the US Congress doesn't have respect for Christianity?

And for the record, I don't get my news from CNN as you accused me of in a previous post.

I reread my post and I never accused you from getting your info from CNN. I said you wouldn't see muslim demonstrations against fundamentalists in the news, not even CNN. If you're saying there are none, then yes you are misinformed and I advice you to do a bit of googling as a supplement to your world wide resources.

Kris

[Civettone]

Hi Matt;

Originally Posted by mkloby

Kris - you claim that it is about time that the US really becomes a secular state... think about this.

Sure, but I specifically said that was a personal opinion (IMHO). So I in fact have no problems with religion playing such a big part in US politics. And you're right in your observation, it does come from my European point of view with its history of religious wars and suppression. Many of the problems in my own society can be attributed to the role of the church in the past.

With regard to Arabic culture, it seems as though the only thing they respect is the sword

To me that doesn't make sense as you are using terms like Islam and Arabic culture as if they are the same. That's quite wrong as there are also nationalistic elements in the Arab which are the opposite of fundamentalist islam.
And what's more Islam is a religion of peace. I can elaborate on that if you're interested.
The same thing for the Arab culture. What makes you conclude that this culture is directed towards violence and war? I can understand that fundamentalists and dictators in the Arab world are like that, but what do you base this on the Arab culture as such??

What really bothers me is the US gov't has so much important SH*T to do - yet they waste time and taxpayer money with this crap.

Sure, but that's politics and that's the way it has always been...
Kris

[mkloby]

Originally Posted by Civettone

To me that doesn't make sense as you are using terms like Islam and Arabic culture as if they are the same. That's quite wrong as there are also nationalistic elements in the Arab which are the opposite of fundamentalist islam.
And what's more Islam is a religion of peace. I can elaborate on that if you're interested.
The same thing for the Arab culture. What makes you conclude that this culture is directed towards violence and war? I can understand that fundamentalists and dictators in the Arab world are like that, but what do you base this on the Arab culture as such??

True, they are not the same. I didn't intend to imply that they were - In that post I was referring specifically to Arabic culture, if I was unclear. I agree with what was said above that there is a major problem throughout not only Arab ISlamic culture, but across much of the Islamic world, extremists have usurped the religion and the moderates and peaceful elements either tacitly agree or are afraid to restrain these radical elements. Either way, it is a major problem throughout the Islamic world.

[Civettone]

It certainly is!

Anyway, glad to talk to you again, Matt. Have a nice day!
Kris

[evangilder]

Originally Posted by Civettone

I now understand that it can be interpreted that way, that it seems that Islam is being favoured and Christianity being set back, just for the sake of political correctness.

That's a big part of it, political correctness. The other problem is when a Muslim in this country gets popped doing something bad, CAIR (Council for American Islamic Relations) screams racism. They caught some muslim college students with explosives. They were appropriately charged. CAIR called it racism and said it was a misunderstanding. NOBODY cried foul!

Originally Posted by Civettone

True, although public buildings is not the same as buildings that can be seen by the public. And that's not what a secular state is about.
If they however would allow muslim symbols in public buildings, I would say you were right. This is however not the case. All Congress did was saying it has respect for Islam and honors it. Is there any reason why I should think the US Congress doesn't have respect for Christianity?

I am not so sure they have respect for Christianity, or many others anymore. When they say nothing as the ACLU takes away things like ten commandments from court-rooms, disallow Christmas decorations in public places work to create a completely religious void, then do this, well, it does make you wonder.

Originally Posted by Civettone

I reread my post and I never accused you from getting your info from CNN. I said you wouldn't see muslim demonstrations against fundamentalists in the news, not even CNN. If you're saying there are none, then yes you are misinformed and I advice you to do a bit of googling as a supplement to your world wide resources.

Kris

Trust me, I know there have been some demonstrations, but not many, and the American Muslims are for the most part silent on the matter.

My biggest beef with all of this is that this country is allowing groups like the ACLU to remove any semblance of faith from anything that involves public money. Then they waste our taxpayer time and money for this ridiculous legislation. How about voting for better body-armor and equipment for our deployed troops? There are a TON of other more important things they should be doing.

My biggest problem with the representatives that were there that complained about it only showed up as "present for the vote", then later spoke about how wrong it was. If it was so effing wrong, why didn't they vote against it? That made me lose a lot of respect fro Tom Tancredo and many others. Bunch of pussies.

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

Sounds a little like John Kerry voting style.

[Vassili Zaitzev]

Originally Posted by evangilder

My biggest beef with all of this is that this country is allowing groups like the ACLU to remove any semblance of faith from anything that involves public money. Then they waste our taxpayer time and money for this ridiculous legislation. How about voting for better body-armor and equipment for our deployed troops? There are a TON of other more important things they should be doing.

I'm guessing they have their brains were their as#es should be.

[Njaco]

Civ, its not what you percieve..In reality, minorities, including Muslims are being bowed to and the rest stepped on.

Adler, who says it is okay for minorities to practice their religion in public of official places?

Evangilder, who says Muslims can have those religious items in the same places where Christians have to remove theirs?

How about this, Civ?
Muslim scarf at heart of disputes around U.S.
"Elgohail insisted on wearing her hijab, the head scarf encouraged by the Quran but prohibited by the Navy. The school tried to work with her on several alternatives — and officials even exempted Elgohail from the ROTC requirement in the end — but she dropped out of the school as a matter of principle......Indiana University recently dropped a ban on women wearing head scarves for student ID photos after four Muslim women complained. In Daytona Beach, Fla., a Muslim woman who initially was denied a state ID card when she refused to remove her hijab eventually got one when she agreed to adjust the covering to permit her full face to be seen in the photo.In Cleveland, the Cuyahoga County Jail agreed last year to let Muslim women wear head scarves in the jail and when they appeared in court.American Airlines reached an out-of-court settlement last year with a woman who said she was turned down for a customer service job when she insisted on wearing the hijab. The airline, which said it offered her a different job, changed its policy in 1999 to permit the wearing of hijabs, crucifixes, yarmulkes and other religious attire by uniformed employees who deal with customers."

I would say a court and an ROTC class would be public, etc. When I appear in court, headgear must be removed.

[Is there any reason why I should think the US Congress doesn't have respect for Christianity?

well, how about....
FOXNews.com - Ohio Lawmaker Wants to Change Policy that Removed 'God' From Flag Certificate - Politics | Republican Party | Democratic Party | Political Spectrum
"Rep. Michael Turner urged House Speaker Nancy Pelosi to review and reverse a rule followed by the Architect of the Capitol that bans the use of religious expressions on flag certificates.That policy, Turner said in a letter to Pelosi signed by other Republicans, "puts at risk our religious freedoms and heritage."

Didn't think twice about removing God and the ACLU just stood by.

To me christianity in the US is rather similar when I look at mormons, Jehova witnesses and more extreme groups like those of Waco. They also misuse real christianity but do you see many christians going to the streets and protesting against the Branch Davidians?

Except in one way, Civ. For every Branch Davidian or Jonestown there is a group that helps "cults" re-program. Never heard of that for Islamists. This is what I hear...
Hamas Uses Mickey Mouse Image To Teach Children Hate And Islamic Supremacy :: Islamic Issues :: Freedoms Zone
"Hamas Uses Mickey Mouse Image To Teach Children Hate And Islamic Supremacy"

I have never seen a Christian comic preach the filth that spouts from the Middle East so don't compare the two.

For Congress to do what they did is WRONG and HYPOCRYTICAL! PERIOD. Don't pee on me and tell its raining!

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Good post there Njaco and I agree.

[Njaco]

Thanks, Adler. And as for the point of comparing Branch Davidians and other Christian nuts to Islamic extremists think of this:

Muslim cults have a religious perspevtive that says non-believers should die so they actively gather weapons to use against them.

Christian cults have a religious perspective that says non-believers should die and so they actively gather weapons to protect themselves against them.

I have never heard of one Christian cult involved in killing innocents because they don't believe their religion. usually they kill themselves to escape the non-believers. Even in Waco, they gathered weapons as defense not offense. Big difference. So nobody can compare the two unless you want to go back a couple hundred years to the Spanish Inquisition.

[Emac44]

As a devoted Christian myself. I have no problem with Muslims practising their faith. What I do have a problem with is certain groups whom call themselves Activist who try and use Governmental Process to remove Chriistainity in forms as already discussed by other forum users. I see the relationship that has been discussed as revelant. Ok I can see some reasons why Congress commended Islam. Hopefuly to appear tolerant as according to how the USA likes to protray itself on the world stage and that is my opinion. But now I can also see the Negative aspect of this as what quiet a few of you have expressed. Organisations like the ACLU lack basic common sense approaches and want to express the warm and fuzzy lovey touchie feeling towards all. That in itself is fine however the ACLU then proceeds to stomp oiver the rights of Christians Jews and others because the ACLU doesn't want to offend Muslims or Hindis or Buddists or whatever. ACLU tries to deny the secular spirituality of Christians and Jews but upholds the rights of others to practise their own forms of spirituality. What organisations like the ACLU doesn't bargin on that Christians and Jews not only have spiritual duties they also have duties in the welfare of the country they abide in or live in. And this is something organisations similar to the ACLU doctrines can't comprehend in my opinion.

Some one said why don't Christians stand up and fight this crazy legislation in commending Islam by Congress. We are fighting this but in a Spiritual Warfare. If one cares to look at Book of Revealation you will find out what Christians are referring to as in Spiritual warfare. I am not saying as Christians as a whole we view Islam as a Religion inspired by Satan, But what I am saying is that Christians have for centuries known about the Spiritual Warfare yet to come. Attacks by such as the ACLU just confirm to Christians that is part of the Spiritual Warfare on earth and direct attacks of the physical by Islamic Extremists upon Christians and that of other faiths have been fortold. Think upon it like this in Revealations God said he would lead the Children of Israel back to the Land of Israel and trials and tribulations will be theirs but they will not be defeated and triumph will unfold upon them. In 1948 the State of Israel came about. To a Christian that is prophecy fulfilled. That is God lead the scattered tribes of Judah and Israel back to Israel.

Now look at the problems in the Middle East since that has occured. Islam on seeing that scripture from the Bible or Torrah has been fulfilled is now locked in denying the Prophecy or destroying the Prophecy from the minds and hearts of Israel and the Children of the Cross (Christians). Islam wants to destroy or remove the realism of God's Prophecy and to do this they would have to remove Israel from the global map of this world. Islam can not fail in this they have set themselves to do as it would mean Islam is a lie and that is something their followers in that religious faith would find abhorent. So the Fatwahs of Spiritual Warfare have to be issued accordingly to combat Jewish or Christian Ideals about Israel. Part of those ideals are our religious icons and symbolism and the use of such organisations like the ACLU is part of that secular attacks on Christian and Jewish Faith etc. What organisations like the ACLU fail to comprehend is that symbolism is just a part of Christian Ideals. Its faith that binds Christians to God not symbols. Much like Moses for example when the Children of God were about to leave Eygpt for the Land of Milk and Honey. You can destroy our Churches you can tear down our Crosses. You can tear and rip our Bibles apart. And you can destroy our bodies but you will never DESTROY OUR FAITH IN GOD AND JESUS CHRIST because you can not control our minds and hearts and that means they the enemy have lost from the very onset of this Spiritual Warfare they have brought to us as Christians and our Brothers the Jews

[Loco-S]

commending islam is like commending the German national socialist party, same monstrosity, different tactics.