USS Liberty and Israel.... the truth

[pbfoot]

How much time you spent on the Golan my young friend both sides are equally assholes except one side has more political pull I don't agree with some of the Palestinian methods but I can appreciate how they feel please try and differentiate between Palestinians and others there is a difference just like there is difference between Alaska and Alabama

[Erich]

# 1 foot : how old do you think I am when you say young ....... ?

# 2 if I told you my service time or my unit(s) in Israel I would probably have to take you out, if you follow my drift.

been there, served and still serving, so don't ask anymore insightful and delicate questions please

[pbfoot]

I 've paid attention to your previous posts as for the Golan I had a lovely 6 months there TDY

[Erich]

i've learned to trust the israelis more than the phillistines, pbfoot due to work and ethics as well as the receiving end of a bullet but i will agree with you both can be unruly and of course assholes. both and i wondered during my stints over there what would happen if they both shook hands and developed the coastline altogether without one hand behind their back(s) armed with a grenade or handgun. the coastline on the med is wonderful all times of the year and a real gold mine for both peoples if they just could get over the quarelling about land and it's right of useage, but it will never be meant to be.

sorry for the small case, the carperal tunnel is kicking in ....

[Hunter368]

Originally Posted by Erich

you Israel scum haters are warped. You better wake up before you get your throat slit by rag heads..........who is the real threat ? it is rather obvious don't you really think. Maybe it's your age for some of you guys/gals and maybe too your immaturity in life not having been overseas feeling the physical effects; the receiving end who is really trying to take you and the world out ............ eh ? !

ah my plans for a mid-east Velodrome are getting forever larger ........

Erich- no one said Muslim nations were not the #1 threat. All we said was that Israel killed those men without cause and that they are not trust worthy, now or in the future. They are extreme in their actions. If they just limited it to their borders then I would have no problem with them. Defending your borders in fine but going beyond your borders could be viewed as terrorism.


Eric- Yes Eric they are the only democracy in the middle east but that does not give them, the right to do whatever they want. If you had family on the Liberty I am sure you might have a different opinion on the matter. Good people can do bad things, but they still need to serve justice for their actions. They did a crime they should of been punished. It was not a mistake what they did, they did it on purpose. What made it even worse was how they did it and to what extreme they took it. Strafing harmless men in the water !!!!! Thats evil. That is a war crime.


Plz Both Erich and Eric explain to PlanD and I why it was done and why it has it been brushed under the carpet. Yes I know that Israel is a important friend to have but still that does not make it acceptable to do what they did. War and politics can be a dirty business that most people don't understand and if they did would be ed. Are you suggesting that those men who were murdered, their lives were lost needlessly were lost just for the sake of not offending a friend in the middle east? Think about all those widows, children without Fathers don't they deserve the truth?

Erich and Eric I highly respect you as you know but ...... plz tell me you don't think what happened is ok or acceptable.

[Erich]

it has been put under raps for many years, why do you think ? are you 100 % positive you friends have the story correct.......... Hmmmmmmmmm ?

there is more to it than has been explained

with that you will get no more from me, sorry

read through my subtleties and you can figure it out

[evangilder]

Originally Posted by Hunter368

Defending your borders in fine but going beyond your borders could be viewed as terrorism.

The maybe the US and Canada should have stayed out of Europe in WWII? There are times that defending you country from potential threats is the right thing to do. Do you think it was wrong for Israel to attack the nuclear facility at Osirak? Do you think that Israel should just stay within their borders until they are pounded to oblivion by their neighbors?

Originally Posted by Hunter368

Eric- Yes Eric they are the only democracy in the middle east but that does not give them, the right to do whatever they want. If you had family on the Liberty I am sure you might have a different opinion on the matter. Good people can do bad things, but they still need to serve justice for their actions. They did a crime they should of been punished. It was not a mistake what they did, they did it on purpose. What made it even worse was how they did it and to what extreme they took it. Strafing harmless men in the water !!!!! Thats evil. That is a war crime.

Do whatever they want? They stayed out of the first Gulf War even though they were attacked with scud missiles from Iraq. If you really read up on Israel and their history, they show more restraint than most people give them credit for. I am quite aware of what happened on the Liberty, but you cannot state for a fact that it was on purpose. There is still a great deal of classified info about that that neither you, nor I have seen.

Originally Posted by Hunter368

Plz Both Erich and Eric explain to PlanD and I why it was done and why it has it been brushed under the carpet. Yes I know that Israel is a important friend to have but still that does not make it acceptable to do what they did. War and politics can be a dirty business that most people don't understand and if they did would be ed. Are you suggesting that those men who were murdered, their lives were lost needlessly were lost just for the sake of not offending a friend in the middle east? Think about all those widows, children without Fathers don't they deserve the truth?

Erich and Eric I highly respect you as you know but ...... plz tell me you don't think what happened is ok or acceptable.

I know about war and politics all too well. I never said what happened with the Liberty was ok. War is hell and mistakes get made. But it is not a matter of convenience or offending an ally that the whole story has never come out. There are many instances where the families of those killed in armed conflict don't get the full truth, and believe me, in a LOT of those cases, it's for the better. Like Erich said, in this case there is more than you or I know, so it is not correct to pass judgement about Israel when you do not know the whole story.

Think back a few years where an American F-16 killed several Canadians in a couple of helicopters. Does that make the US evil? As I have said before, in war, mistakes are made and good men get killed. I know, as does Dan, Erich and several others here. The incident that you are giving so much attention to happened almost 40 years ago. Have the Israelis attacked any US ships since then?

[Hunter368]

Originally Posted by evangilder

The maybe the US and Canada should have stayed out of Europe in WWII? There are times that defending you country from potential threats is the right thing to do. Do you think it was wrong for Israel to attack the nuclear facility at Osirak? Do you think that Israel should just stay within their borders until they are pounded to oblivion by their neighbors?

Do whatever they want? They stayed out of the first Gulf War even though they were attacked with scud missiles from Iraq. If you really read up on Israel and their history, they show more restraint than most people give them credit for. I am quite aware of what happened on the Liberty, but you cannot state for a fact that it was on purpose. There is still a great deal of classified info about that that neither you, nor I have seen.

I know about war and politics all too well. I never said what happened with the Liberty was ok. War is hell and mistakes get made. But it is not a matter of convenience or offending an ally that the whole story has never come out. There are many instances where the families of those killed in armed conflict don't get the full truth, and believe me, in a LOT of those cases, it's for the better. Like Erich said, in this case there is more than you or I know, so it is not correct to pass judgement about Israel when you do not know the whole story.

Think back a few years where an American F-16 killed several Canadians in a couple of helicopters. Does that make the US evil? As I have said before, in war, mistakes are made and good men get killed. I know, as does Dan, Erich and several others here. The incident that you are giving so much attention to happened almost 40 years ago. Have the Israelis attacked any US ships since then?

-Defending your own borders sorry I thought I made the comment (I think I did it in the other thread about Middle east) that crossing borders to "defending" yourself was ok, just to explain that one alittle better.

-"Do you think it was wrong for Israel to attack the nuclear facility at Osirak?" That was fine but pushing the line, it was aggressive but ok.

-"I am quite aware of what happened on the Liberty, but you cannot state for a fact that it was on purpose" Yes I do. It was clearly marked as a USA ship from all accounts including the men on the ship.

-"War is hell and mistakes get made" Was it a mistake ? That is what I am trying to discover and talk about. It does not seem that way to me, but I want to learn more on the subject from knowledgeable people like yourself.

-"so it is not correct to pass judgment about Israel when you do not know the whole story" Thats my point I want us all to talk about it and learn from each other what we all know. Thats all.

-"Think back a few years where an American F-16 killed several Canadians in a couple of helicopters. Does that make the US evil?" No, it was a mistake. Friendly fire, that happens and I understand that. Liberty case is not friendly fire in my opinion. It was a aggressive attack that was pressed home time after time without let up or mercy or even a warning. This was not attack that only last 5 mins or one strike, it was repeated attacks. Strafing men in the water and lifeboats. That is not a mistake.

-"The incident that you are giving so much attention to happened almost 40 years ago." Not sure what you are trying to say here. But yes 40 years later I for one would like to know more about it. I love history. This event strikes a nerve with me b/c of its vicious nature.

I have heard that the USA ship was spying on Israel at the time. That is fine, I think fire a warning shot at it or sending out ships to warn it away would of done it. Even to a non friendly ship maybe sink it at most. Do not strafe the men in water and lifeboats.

I just want to learn more about Eric and Erich. I do not know alot of people who like to discuss these types of things but yourselves, that is why I come here. To learn from each other, you two men I respect alot and I want your (and anyone elses) input if you would be so kind. Erich if you do not want to comment I understand.

[Ball Turret Gunner]

Hey guys, Erich is correct in this. No, I myself have never been there nor ever intend to go there but, I do know several people who lived or served there and I do know what they tell me. 99% of what I hear from them is as Erich has said here.

I would rather the Isrealis have the nukes instead of some middleeastern country who's govts are almost never of sound mind nor physically stable in the world community.

By the way, I personally do know one of those U.S. Navy servicemen who served on the USS Liberty. This vet happens to be the husband of an employee of my local neighborhood library. It is quite possible that I can ask him questions on what he went through -- if there is any interest?

[Erich]

BTG feel free to post awy about that vets activites.

* note * to all I have tried to keep my mouth in some of the political strides ever since setting foot here several years ago and many of the threads turn my stomach sour especially with those that I have worked with and for and also the ones that have "worked" against me. As my hands are shakey and nothing like what they used to be when I was 19-20 and somewhat innocent, the shakiness can be used to good effect to stop me from posting anything more that may endanger myself or the govt. and yes this forum and others can easily be watched if you follow me ........

let the stones fly

[evangilder]

Let's take a quick look at the situation. Israel was at war with Egypt and others. A US Navy spy ship is 15 miles off of the coast of Egypt. Regardless of what decisions were made, and by whom, if you have anyone's spy ship within 15 miles of a war zone that is not actively involved in combat operations, it is going to make some people very nervous.

Before anyone villifies the Israelis for this, why were American carrier aircraft launched to assist and then recalled before they could get very far? Why were no other US Navy vessels brought in to help until after the attack? These are questions you will probably never know the answer to.

Also remember that the Israelis paid $6 million in retribution for the attack in three annual installments. That is not necessarily any admission of anything.

You want my opinion, it was FUBAR all the way and a bad SNAFU from the start. Mistakes were made by all parties involved and we will never know the full truth. Again, you cannot state with all honesty that it was on purpose. You don't have all the facts, nor do I, so you cannot make a claim like that without the facts. There is likely more that we do not know than what we do.

[Ball Turret Gunner]

Hi Erich, i will be glad to do so when next I see him at the library. I do not know when it will be because he works night shift. However, I can ask his wife to ask him questions if need be.

[Hunter368]

Eric,

"You want my opinion, it was FUBAR all the way and a bad SNAFU from the start. Mistakes were made by all parties involved and we will never know the full truth. Again, you cannot state with all honesty that it was on purpose. You don't have all the facts, nor do I, so you cannot make a claim like that without the facts. There is likely more that we do not know than what we do."

Ok fair, just when I hear what those vets say it gets me excited and pizzed off. Then when nothing is done about it, it makes it even worse. But you are right we will never know more than we already do. USS Liberty should never been that close to a war zone (whether in international waters or not), I just feel for those sailors, wives and children. So so so sad.

[Vassili Zaitzev]

I dont know what to say about the incident, i only saw half a show about on the history channel. I just wish people all over the world would stop killing each other over political, religious, and economical differences. I just wish the world would be peaceful without war, but as long as there are people with a lot of pull and a evil psyche it will never happen. As for the liberty, i think the familes should know the truth and for Israel to apologize, or at least acknowledge that they committed the attack.

[evangilder]

They never denied that they attacked.