Venezuela to purchase 24 new Russian fighter jets

[mkloby]

Originally Posted by Matt308

I don't care what anyone says, that is a beautiful bird. The Su-30 supposedly has upgrades to avionics, weapons and engines. What those upgrades are and their effectiveness, I have not heard.

So they're beautiful cannon fodder! Venezuela would not be able to employ them w/ any effectiveness against the US - it's a nice attempt though on their part.

[Matt308]

Certainly 24 of anything are of no threat to the US. But we should not underestimate them nonetheless. Remember the Falklands. Argentina suprised the bejesus out of the UK. As Sun Tzu would espouse, a complacent force is a force with weaknesses.

[v2]

(Video) Los Sukhoi SU-30 volaron junto al avión presidencial

[mkloby]

Originally Posted by Matt308

Certainly 24 of anything are of no threat to the US. But we should not underestimate them nonetheless. Remember the Falklands. Argentina suprised the bejesus out of the UK. As Sun Tzu would espouse, a complacent force is a force with weaknesses.

I understand your point... but they have E-2s and such supporting them? Not to mention avionics has long been a weekpoint of russian A/C - MiG-29 is a prime example of that. Regardless of their radar capabilities - it's not going to outclass E-2s and AWACS. They will be locked on w/o ever knowing the US aircraft exist as a threat.

[FLYBOYJ]

Something else to consider...

The Venezuelan AF had a fighter weapons school set up in the 1950s. My old neighbor Mike Alba (3 kills in WW2) helped set up that school, I think today its located at El Libertador airbase. Their whole military training establishment has been set up by the US. I'd like to see how they will train with a change in doctrine, especially if Russians help them with their new fighters. Personally I don't think the SU-30 is the fighter everyone is making it out to be and I won't hold my breath when it comes to adequate maintenance training, product support and spares logistics. Russia is a far way from Venezuela. If stupidsass Chavez wanted to go anti-American he should of bought Grippens or even Mirages - His infatuation with former "Soviet" equipment just shows further infatuation with the left, something that will ultimately be his undoing...

[kronos1821]

First a think this entire thread should be moved to Politics. Second. I stumbled in this thread by accident while searching for something and read some unbelievable stuff. Lets start with mkloby.
“Venezuela - it's an extremely unimportant nation”
Unimportant to whom? This is the kind of thinking that allows our leaders to declare war to anyone they wish. I am sure Venezuelans think their nation very important.
Mat308
“Look back in history and you can see that losing to America is to your advantage. The US is the world's most benevolent conquerer.”
This is another one-sided view of the world and humanity. Romans felt the same way, colonial Spaniards, English, French, Dutch etc felt the same way when they arrived in Americas, Africa, Australia… Lets “civilize” these people hm? Tell that to the Navaho nation the Sioux, the Mayans, the Africans, the Iraqis…... Much progress they got, eh?
Syscom3
“a third world dictator”
A dictator is not elected – period. If the majority of Venezuelans voted for him who are we to say otherwise and if so why don’t we say the same about Bush, Blair, Mitterrand? Democracy – look up the word – means power to the people, the freedom to choose our leaders. If we don’t like them we shouldn’t bomb the **** out of their people to remove them from power. A dead person is a son, daughter, husband, wife to another person, and that other person may seek vengeance. Have you ever thought that way? I am sure we all have when someone hurt our loved ones, persons or possessions.
We should be more objective and try to help unite this freaking planet. Pain and suffering inflicted by us doesn’t help other than some people’s bank accounts. THINK!

[mkloby]

Originally Posted by kronos1821

First a think this entire thread should be moved to Politics. Second. I stumbled in this thread by accident while searching for something and read some unbelievable stuff. Lets start with mkloby.
“Venezuela - it's an extremely unimportant nation”
Unimportant to whom? This is the kind of thinking that allows our leaders to declare war to anyone they wish. I am sure Venezuelans think their nation very important.

Using the time honored "sound bite" technique, are we kronos? Here's my full statement:
"The US isn't interested much in Venezuela - it's an extremely unimportant nation, as of right now. There's no threat whatsoever by their military. Engage in hi profile terrorist activities... then maybe that'll catch our attention."

Clearly someone of your SUPERIOR intellect to us "idjits" can see by reading my FULL post that I was speaking in reference to the US foreign policy radar.
Furthermore - I'm sorry I don't see any validity in your "This is the kind of thinking that allows our leaders to declare war to anyone they wish." line of BS that sounds like crap that comes out of michael moore's mouth.

Originally Posted by kronos1821

Mat308
“Look back in history and you can see that losing to America is to your advantage. The US is the world's most benevolent conquerer.”
This is another one-sided view of the world and humanity. Romans felt the same way, colonial Spaniards, English, French, Dutch etc felt the same way when they arrived in Americas, Africa, Australia… Lets “civilize” these people hm? Tell that to the Navaho nation the Sioux, the Mayans, the Africans, the Iraqis…... Much progress they got, eh?

I think he was focusing on certain major successes, such as western europe post WWII and Japan. Compare those WWII axis nations that were occupied by the USSR and their situation following the war, since they weren't able to benefit from US economic aid...

Originally Posted by kronos1821

A dictator is not elected – period. If the majority of Venezuelans voted for him who are we to say otherwise and if so why don’t we say the same about Bush, Blair, Mitterrand? Democracy – look up the word – means power to the people, the freedom to choose our leaders. If we don’t like them we shouldn’t bomb the **** out of their people to remove them from power. A dead person is a son, daughter, husband, wife to another person, and that other person may seek vengeance. Have you ever thought that way? I am sure we all have when someone hurt our loved ones, persons or possessions.
We should be more objective and try to help unite this freaking planet. Pain and suffering inflicted by us doesn’t help other than some people’s bank accounts. THINK!

Oh come on - world hug!? Did the league of nations work? NO! Is the UN working? GOD NO! Why can't we be objective and unite the planet? Because, my naive friend, human beings will always create conflict with each other. American interests will always differ from Chinese interests, Russian interests, French interests, Italian interests, British interests, ETC at some point in time. Better yet - what if a ruler is performing genocide on his people - should we abstain from intervening in the name of not waging war and being a big, happy, and cuddly planet? Are those people that were murdered also husbands, wives, brothers, sisters, sons and daughters? This world unite crap remains a pipe dream of those who wish to see the world for what they want it to be, not what it is. I invite you to join the real world.

[Glider]

I don't think there is much doubt that the aircraft are no threat to the USA but another danger is that it could be a threat to the other countries in the area. For all its problems, this has been a fairly quiet part of the world for a while and the leadership in many of the countries are maturing.
This type of arms purchases may be enough to destabise the area which would be a tragedy.

[FLYBOYJ]

Kronos, you are probably right, this does belong in the Politics forum, but I will add this...

Although he won elections, Chavez initially came into power as a result of a coup, very common in Venezuela. My father was raised there, in fact my Great Grandfather gathered an army and attempted an overthrow of the government in the late 1800s. Since the late 1930s it's common to see a coup (or coup attempt) every 5 to 10 years.

There's no doubt Venezuela is of strategic importance to us because they are our 3rd largest oil supplier, at the same time they could easily be replaced by Canada, Mexico or even Russia (The last time I looked Venezuela supplies 14% of our imported crude oil). Chavez is typical of a segment of the population who either loves the US or hates it. There are many people there extremely enviously of the US. In either case Chavez IS a third world leftist pinhead with aspirations left over from the cold war period and its just a matter of time before one of his Colonels or General feels they could do a better job.

[Matt308]

"The Mouse that Roared". A satirical view of a backwards country that starts a war with the US to "better" itself and winds up bumbling into winning the war. Good book.

I've made other posts where we have discussed the rather profound results of post war with the US and contrasted with that of post war effects with other major powers. The facts are the facts. I do not advocate starting war to "better" others. Rather, I find it quite historical that when modern US has gone to war, the "conquered" countries are usually left politically independent, financially stable, and of equal or greater world influence than pre-war status. Arrogance? Perhaps. Our downfall? Maybe.

[kronos1821]

Sorry all but my “superior intellect” is limited to cut and paste, no nice quote frames here.
OK mkloby as much as I hate to play devil’s advocate I will do so here. My apologies, I took your post out of context. I am sure you have great respect for all nations, races and religions. Your attitude, your demeanor. in these posts show otherwise, but hey I have always been known to have poor judgment. One small confession, I don’t beat the wife and kids into the straight and narrow, I allow free will and negotiate a lot. Sorry.
Having served in the armed forces it’s not the same as been there and “walk the walk”. Have you been shot at? Had a friend killed next to you? Seen the bits and peaces scattered all over the place? War – i.e. beat them into submission – it’s not the answer. It may be forced on us from time to time, WWII for example, but nobody threatened US security in Korea, Vietnam, Laos and now in Iraq. On the other hand war is good business, WWII is the reason we got out of depression and became a superpower, right? It was bad business in Somalia, Rwanda and elsewhere and so we either pulled out or just watched. I suppose we couldn’t mobilize to save hundreds of thousands of Rwandans but we could to save the Iraqi Kurds/Shiites from Saddam’s bloody grip. Lets see what is the key phrase I need here? OK I got it “vital interests”. Convert “vital interests” to “national security” and bingo, you have the main ingredients to “solve the worlds problems, bring democracy, liberate, defend our way of life” and whatever other catch phrase you can come up with. We bombed Serbia to the stone-age to avert genocide, right? Lets be realistic things are not black and white and although a may be “naïve” I wonder why our interests wouldn’t, couldn’t and shouldn’t coincide with those of the Chinese, French, Russian and others and why they do with Canada’s, England’s etc. Maybe it is so because we want them to coincide and we work to keep them that way, I say maybe, who knows?
Do you think we been making friends around the world in the last 5-6 years? (OK I know you’re thinking “who gives a sh…t”). But do you think we can take everybody on and for how long? I am old enough to remember that Castro came to the US for help first, then went to China then to USSR. Maybe, again, our “vital interests, our way of life” pushed people to become communists and now we push them to become terrorists. I, for one, am afraid for the future of my kids and beyond. What kind of world are we going to leave behind for them?
You think the Germans and the Japanese have forgotten and forgiven us? OK, OK you were talking in financial terms, prosperity. Their success has nothing to do with their culture, industrious character and work ethic, right? Before the war they were living in caves. After we got in they emerged as economic superpowers, we made them work harder and become brighter. Ooops, sorry again, we were gracious enough to allow them to prosper, that’s why they did it. It’s all business mkloby, it’s been like that since Troy and continues to this day. I just hope we may be able to do something about it. Europeans are doing it, albeit slowly but they are getting there.
A Star Trek fan

[MrFirst]

"Venezuela to purchase 24 new Russian fighter jets"
May be mr. Chavez just doesn’t want to follow Milosevic and Saddam?..
---
"I find it quite historical that when modern US has gone to war, the "conquered" countries are usually left politically independent, financially stable, and of equal or greater world influence than pre-war status."
That’s funny. Tell this to serbs.

[Matt308]

With that siggy, I'll assume that you shot your wad and likely this was your only post.

[FLYBOYJ]

Kronos, I'm going to ask you to move your liberal melodrama to the political forum, you could sound off all you want there...

[mkloby]

Originally Posted by MrFirst

"Venezuela to purchase 24 new Russian fighter jets"
May be mr. Chavez just doesn’t want to follow Milosevic and Saddam?..
---
"I find it quite historical that when modern US has gone to war, the "conquered" countries are usually left politically independent, financially stable, and of equal or greater world influence than pre-war status."
That’s funny. Tell this to serbs.

Because the squadron of Su's would hold out for what, 13 or 14 seconds against the boys in blue??