What do you think of our current President?

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by rogthedodge

FBJ

Ah possibly on the surface but in the long-term? It could be argued that your stock is falling all around the world and your currency is in deep trouble, the economy may be doing ok at home but that's largely being paid for at the cost of ever-increasing national debt. I think they're having to invent new numbers for it now

Some of this is the curse of the modern world, some of this is living beyond your means and some of it is, possibly, a reaction to people rejecting America - Iran getting out of the Dollar for its oil sales for example.

Roger, we've been in this situation before - I could remember people saying the same thing after Vietnam, during the 80s and now - and we keep bouncing back. Yesterday the Dow Jones hit an all time high and again our economy is very strong despite the deficit which was created because of 911 and eventually Iraq. Because its a campaign issue, I'll bet within the next 5 to 10 years that deficit is gone as it was in the mid 90s. Even in the worse time and during recessions, we do better economically than most EC countries during the best of times. If we didn't self destruct in the 1960s, we'll have another 100 years a head of us...

Sorry Roger, its the same old song and I've heard it every 10 years....

[rogthedodge]

Hope you're right - if not we've food parcels ready for despatch.

Curry, Marmite and HP sauce - that'll teach you. The Empire's revenge

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by rogthedodge

Hope you're right - if not we've food parcels ready for despatch.

Why would we need food parcels? We have so much over capacity in the agribusiness, we pay people NOT to farm.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by rogthedodge

Hope you're right - if not we've food parcels ready for despatch.

Too Funny - California alone feeds this whole country! But appreciate the thought....

Originally Posted by rogthedodge

Curry, Marmite and HP sauce - that'll teach you. The Empire's revenge

Hehehehe..... Child's play - have you ever had real hot sauce from Texas!

[Njaco]

Oh, I have! Came back on me hours later! Woo Hoo!

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I think people underestimate the US.

Germany and Japan did as well, see where that got them.

[mkloby]

The United States' national debt is par with that of Canada, France, and Germany (between 60-70% GDP). Italy has about 30% higher, and Britain is lower in at about 40%.

I'm not saying it's not an issue - just putting it in perspective.

[davparlr]

Originally Posted by rogthedodge

Just my $0.04's worth:

I really think he's the worst you've had in a long time. I can only comment on the international aspects but I think he's done your country lots of harm.

It is always unwise to judge a president while in office. Probably the most reviled president in office was Lincoln.

Recently this has turned to a more active dislike (not towards individual yanks but overall as a nation).

I think this is mostly a Western Europe thing. East Europe seems not to tag along. Even France and Germany have leaned toward the US lately. Asia is too busy getting rich off of the “weak” US economy to be bothered with criticism. I also think this is driven by liberal press in most of the world.

I think much of this has to do with the crazy crusade to invade Iraq planned and pushed through in spite of the evidence and the legality of the action*.

This is an uninformed comment. Evidence was massive, including UN, French, Russian, and other intelligence agencies. Everyone believed it, Bush acted on consensus of world opinion. Their complaint was not against the evidence, but rather that he acted without their blessing. Legality? Violation of a cease fire treaty provides legality for war does it not? Iraq violated the Persian Gulf treaty multiple times. This in itself provides legality. No UN rule prevents a nation from defending itself from threats. Iraq rejected 14 UN resolutions to answer issues that would eliminate the perceived threat Iraqi posed to its neighbors and to Western civilization. Bush decided to act believing, correctly, that the UN would have never acted.

Even if Bush was justified (and I believe he wasn't) he failed to convince the World that it was a just and necessary action.

You believe he wasn’t justified to stop a person who initiated two wars of aggression against his neighbors, Iran and Kuwait, causing the death of 1.5 to 2 million people, brutalizing and gassing a majority segment of his population including women and children, and violation of multiple cease fire agreements? What would it take for you to think it was justifiable, approval of France and Russia?

- it has been viewed by many as a colonial action in quest for resources.

Its interesting that it is viewed as a colonial action in quest for resources when, at this present time, the US, under Bush, is pushing the Iraqi government to pass a law sharing all the oil profits among its population, something that has never been done in an Arab state. That is some colonial action, huh?

We've heard and rejected his spurious justification that Iraq was involved in 9/11.

I don’t remember a single comment from Bush accusing Iraq of being involved in 9/11. This accusation is a left media urban legend.

I should say I really feel for all the troops and Iraqi civilians killed and maimed as a result of this personal crusade - there's lots of blood on just a few hands.

Verses the blood not spilled by a monster not left in power?

This course of action has harmed your country in many ways, some of which will only be seen in the years to come. The current state of your economy and the rush to ditch the Dollar are possibly just examples of this harm to your standing in the World.

By all important measures, the US economy is very healthy; productivity is up (a problem that Europe has), inflation is low, unemployment is down (a problem that Europe has), tax revenues are up, deficit reduction is exceeding expectations, national birthrate is up (a symbol of personal satisfaction, also a European problem). The fact that the US absorbed massive hits to its economy when Bush first came to power, dot.com collapse, Enron bankruptcy, and 9/11, and responded as if it was a slight blip, is an amazing and historic performance. I think Bush will be recognized as effectively negating the main terrorists attack against its target, the US economy.

As for the dollar value, the primary reason for the low dollar is the low interest rates we have. Who wants to buy dollars at a 4% interest when you can get a Euro for 5-6% interest? So, what do you want, a strong currency or a strong economy?

* Almost everything I've said above could equally be said of Bliar, I think they've both harmed our countries and we'll feel the effects for many years to come.

The big effects our countries will feel is if we fail in Iraq and either a Palestine-like civil war occurs or radical Islam controls the entire area. Within 1000 miles of Baghdad (all influenced by Baghdad) is the control of 55% of the world oil reserves. Think how it would be if this is disrupted by violence or if, through its control, radical Islamist has the fingers around our Western throats.

History will judge, and I believe it will be unkind

History will judge, and I believe you are wrong.

[rogthedodge]

Well you're entitled to your view, as am I.

I'm not sure that you're really in a position to judge how the world feels about you, your media seems to specialise in not carrying much international news, even less if it's critical of America. Go to any European capital, find a bar and hold forth about the war - you may be surprised.

It's not 'uninformed comment', it may not fit with your view but to damn it as uninformed is a typical right-wing response.
You do accept that there are different perspectives on most matters don't you?

The evidence was massive, yes, but that evidence was concocted by Rumsfeld and his chums to provide justification for a course of action already decided. There's evidence Elvis has been seen on the moon - doesn't make it valid.

Saddam gassing Kurds was met with a large wall of indifference when it actually happened, officially no-one cared. Was it used as justification for carrying on GW1? - no! Was the evidence allowed about where the gas was sourced from? - no!
Quite frankly it's typical of certain groups to dredge up a crime from a long time ago (in which the US played a part) and then use it as justification to invade. How soon we forget!

The deal on oil revenue that has been signed fixes the oil co. revenues as twice the standard rate for the next 30 years plus a large part of the remaining revenue is taken as reparations. Isn't it interesting how the Iraqis 'choose' to buy US fire trucks, jeeps etc etc? It's exploitation to benefit the US economy.

You don't remember Bush linking, with weasel words, Iraq and 9/11? - you have a very short and a selective memory.

Ah the old 'Saddam was a monster' claim - of course he was a brutal man - just like many ME rulers. Have you ever seen an analysis of how many of those dug-up bodies were the casualties of normal ME-style justice?, of course not. Some were undoubtably executed for crimes - murder, rape etc but it's not in 'the west's' interests to examine that fact too closely - much better to view them all as victims of oppression - it suits the agenda.

If the US is going to invade every country with a brutal dictator you're going to be busy boys and rack up a load of air miles - when's Zimbabwe?

Iraq was never a nice place to live but is it really any better now? On balance & considering the lack of religious freedom and the fate of women now it's very very marginal.

So it was about oil all along?

I think you're wrong on many of your points and think you're very wrong on history. I'm sure you can find some comforting media that'll tell you it was all justified and valliant but the balance of opinion will see it for what it was - grubby and self-serving

[Njaco]

Come on, Roger, how can you start a post about "everyone has an opinion and is entitled to it" then ram leftist BS at us? Lets play.

It's not 'uninformed comment', it may not fit with your view but to damn it as uninformed is a typical right-wing response.

Well you're entitled to your view, as am I.

The evidence was massive, yes, but that evidence was concocted by Rumsfeld and his chums to provide justification for a course of action already decided.

Well you're entitled to your view, as am I.

Quite frankly it's typical of certain groups to dredge up a crime from a long time ago (in which the US played a part) and then use it as justification to invade.

Well you're entitled to your view, as am I.
(as for this comment, explain bringing up Bush's early military service?)

Isn't it interesting how the Iraqis 'choose' to buy US fire trucks, jeeps etc etc? It's exploitation to benefit the US economy.

Well you're entitled to your view, as am I.

You don't remember Bush linking, with weasel words, Iraq and 9/11?

Well you're entitled to your view, as am I.

Iraq was never a nice place to live but is it really any better now? On balance & considering the lack of religious freedom and the fate of women now it's very very marginal.

Well you're entitled to your view, as am I.

So it was about oil all along?

Well you're entitled to your view, as am I.

I think you're wrong on many of your points and think you're very wrong on history.

Well you're entitled to your view, as am I.

And if that weren't enough theres this gem.....

Saddam gassing Kurds was met with a large wall of indifference .....Have you ever seen an analysis of how many of those dug-up bodies were the casualties of normal ME-style justice?,

What is it? Innocents or criminals? And what exactly was he on trial for? capital Punishment on a grand scale?

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by rogthedodge

So it was about oil all along?

Then why are we not protecting the oil pipelines?

That was never a duty of me or any of my fellow soldiers when we were in Iraq, nor is it now.

Please dont make stuff up, unless you have evidence of it. On this subject you dont. It is just opinion and speculation.

Originally Posted by rogthedodge

I'm sure you can find some comforting media that'll tell you it was all justified and valliant but the balance of opinion will see it for what it was - grubby and self-serving

If it is self serving what has the US gained from it? Nothing.

I have not recieved anything from it.

Again nothing but speculation and opinion on your part as well.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by rogthedodge

Njaco

'Personal' - well the war was being planned well before 9/11, certainly the re-examining of Int to find evidence of Iraqi wrongdoing (Office of Special Plans) seemed to be trying to find justification for a pre-determined course of action.

Certainly our intelligence community, State Department, Office of Presidency and Department of Defense leaders embraced it in 1998-1999? Clinton, Albright, Tenant, Cohen plus Kerry, Kennedy, etc had the view that he "had WMD" and must be stopped - otherwise why the cruise missle attacks on tent camps in Afghanistan, Iraq and aspirin factories in Sudan".. seems like either planning was going on or we had a party willing to do anything - and not the Republican Party

Personally I think that picture of his 'Daddy' on the hotel floor was a major part of Bush's motivation, maybe others were pulling his strings too but that's possibly even more worrying

Sly insults - do you deal in facts or do you write for the Guardian?

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FBJ

Ah possibly on the surface but in the long-term? It could be argued that your stock is falling all around the world and your currency is in deep trouble, the economy may be doing ok at home but that's largely being paid for at the cost of ever-increasing national debt. I think they're having to invent new numbers for it now

B As Tony Blair expressed - (You know that famous Right Wing politician that supported the US in these 'adventures') beware driving the US from the world stage. Most of us would LOVE pulling back every US trooper and $$ of foreign aid and $$ of support to the UNthat spends all its time bashing us but asking for more of our Taxes.

Some of this is the curse of the modern world, some of this is living beyond your means and some of it is, possibly, a reaction to people rejecting America - Iran getting out of the Dollar for its oil sales for example.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway not here to discuss macro-economics or the crusade glad that my comments have been seen for what they were - observations on your Dear Leader not having a go at you guys personally

I don't see them 'for what they were- observations on your Dear Leader' - it looks like another Bash America discussion from a supercillious varmint in Britain that is used to less that 1% spending on Defense, can put less than a couple of Divisions of boots on the ground in any conflict, yet has ALWAYS been able to count on us for support..

You (personally) don't count for a popcorn f@r* as far as a friend or ally but your Prime Minister took the hit for the lack of courage and will on the part of the British people and it will happen here also. You set the stage in 1938 and know the routine! Your problem with the fundamentalists in your own country has you stumbling all over yourselves trying not 'to alienate them' with holocaust discussions, phrase like "War on Terrorism", etc.

We are nowhere close to being perfect, so this is not about that - but we have shed far too much blood globally for ZERO return and it is precisely people like you that puts me in a complete rage. When you travel to Cambridge, Normandy, Liege, Brussels you see one hell of a lot of the crosses with the remains of Americans underneath, ditto in obscure islands in the Pacific.

I don't see one Brit grave of a Brit that died for the US anywhere in America. But by God, there are some in Iraq and Afghanistan - and it is your previous Prime Minister that you have savaged in your press that I thank for that. My hat is off to Blair and the troopers that died with us - the rest of you (including Brown) can bite me.

If you find that offensive - good, we understand each other.

Postscript - I aplogise for my reaction, but candidly stand behind the sentiments.

Regards,

Bill

[drgondog]

Rog - Do you really think that Blair would have thrown in British soldiers at great cost to him politically, with a conservative US President almost diametrically opposed to him on most issues, without being convinced by British (and French and Russian) intelligence that Iraq still had WMDs?

If you do, what was the motive for political suicide

[renrich]

Davparl and Bill, Thank you so much for your good words. I personally don't appreciate some scum sucking, pissant, left wing, socialistic, pinko prick criticising our president and our country, especially when it is clear that he has no historical perspective whatsoever and does not live here. I try to restrain myself before I criticise the politics in another country because I know I don't live there and don't understand all the factors in play. Your good words about Blair and the political risk he took are so true but when you confront a liberal or leftie with Blair's actions they give you back some drivel like he was a puppet of Bush's. BS

[syscom3]

The bizarre thing about liberals and leftists, is if it was Bill Clinton or Al Gore doing the exact same thing, then they would applaud him!