What do you think of our current President?

[The Basket]

Churchill is polled to be the Greatest Briton of all time, nevermind Prime Minister.

And I agree with that.

But he got booted out at the first democratic election. Proof that his policies were unpopular.

[renrich]

Go figure. If you think about it the voters in the majority generally get what they deserve.

[davparlr]

Originally Posted by renrich

Go figure. If you think about it the voters in the majority generally get what they deserve.

Unfortunately, you are correct.

[rogthedodge]

Originally Posted by The Basket

Churchill was a democratic leader in a democratic country. Only Hitler and Stalin had no critics.

If the war was going wrong then Churchill should answer for it as head of state.

To offer blind obidience is just not on. Hitler wanted nothing less and look where it got him.

We all have to answer for our mistakes.

Actually that's wrong - Churchill was an appointed leader in a National Government, in a country where the democratic process was suspended for the duration.

He was never Head of State - that's the Monarch's job!


Churchill was elected on a mandate to govern but not until 1951

[Aussie1001]

As an aussie i have great respect for winston churchill however i have a problem in ww2 when the japs were starting to really get into their stride in the pacific Winston Churchill would not let our troops from Great Britain go home to Auz which wasn't very nice.

[Emac44]

Originally Posted by Aussie1001

As an aussie i have great respect for winston churchill however i have a problem in ww2 when the japs were starting to really get into their stride in the pacific Winston Churchill would not let our troops from Great Britain go home to Auz which wasn't very nice.

Sorry mate I have no respect for Winston Churchill.. Not only did he object for Australian Troops to come home to Australia to fight in the Pacific including Papua New Giunea Campaign. He also tried to send Australian Troops to Burma when that campaign was in the process of being lost. He disregarded the problems in Malaya and Singapore. He managed to have reinforcements of part of Australian Troops into Dutch East Indies. His infleunced the Greek Campaign in 1941. Sending Troops into Greece and hopefuly trying to start up a Second Balkans Front in Europe when the North African and Middle East Campaigns were still needing Troops men and supplies and depleted those areas in favour of the doomed Greek Campaign. Over all Churchill was a great politican. But as far as anything else which he proved also in World War 1 as First Sea Lord of the Admiralty. He made a better politican then a general or admiral. In my opinion of Churchill he was the best General and Admiral the Germans Italians and Japaneses had in England

[Cyrano]

And it is highly probable that Churchill gave his blessing to sacrifice the Lusitania:

"Many years ago (and the date wasn't specified), the Royal Navy wanted to know if it were possible to find lost submarines, and were performing lots of tests on the Lusitania wreck on such matters as cutting into the hull, attaching items to the hull, electrolysis of seawater etc. to test the feasiblity of various ideas. Jack told me that, at some point (and he didn't mention the year), proof had been found of munitions (shells etc.) on the Lusitania and they were removed.

With regards to the Lusitania, John stated that the HMS Reclaim (later renamed the Bonaventure) was involved in depth charging the hull, and also used a "ripping machine". This is in connection with Prime Minister Winston Churchill's last order in 1955 to "make sure the truth (about the Lusitania) was not found out". Remember that Chruchill was in charge of the Admiralty in 1915 when the Lusitania sank and there have been acres of speculation - confirmed by John, that the Lusitania was sacrificed to bring America into the War."

Source: Who really found the Titanic?

And further evidence, a conversation between Sir Edward Grey of England, the Foreign Secretary of England, and Colonel Edward Mandell House:

Grey: What will America do if the Germans sink an ocean liner with American passengers on board?
House: I believe that a flame of indignation would sweep the United States and that by itself would be sufficient to carry us into the war.

And this was before Lusitania was sunk. At that time Lusitania was under Churchill's command, and German war code was broken in January 1915. So British intelligence knew when Uboats were present. Churchill himself ordered the escort vessel Juno to return to harbor. Lusitania was a sitting duck. Just criminal, 1200 people died.

[Njaco]

I have to bow to the superior knowledge of Aussies and NZs on here as I have no clue about what Churchill did in respects to troops. I have always listed Churchill as one of my five greatest people of the 20th Century (along with Teddy Roosevelt, Ghandi, and Martin L. King) but I just wanted to show a comparison with Bush regarding war policies and how history looks at them afterwards.

I am out of my league with regards to this but at a quick glane, maybe by opening several fronts against the Axis, he knew their resources would be depleted and the US would compensate. IMO.

[The Basket]

If You have no proof about the Lusitania then don't say it.
Highly probable? What about the Athenia in 1939? Churchill was alive in 1962...why not check if he was the second gunman on the grassy knoll in Texas november time.

No respect for Churchill? What did he do? Nothing? If you have not respect for him then you have no idea who he was or what he did.

Churchill bashing gets my goat. I and my fellow countrymen owe him far more than any other man.

[Aussie1001]

Yes basket but i'm sure your respect for churchill would be reduced by a considerable amout if he pulled the plug on you when your country was under direct threat from the jappanese who were very close to our country. At the time most of our army was either in the desert fighting Rommel or in the pacific fighting the nips it is criminal that he would not let our troops return to their homeland it its greatest hour of need. By the way have you heard of the kokoda trail ?

[renrich]

As far as the debate about Churchill is concerned, I can understand how you Aussies feel and of course, have great respect for the efforts of Australia and NZ during WW2. Churchill had many faults,(as do all people) not the least of which was an exalted opinion of himself as far as a strategist. Often times his judgment was faulty, Gallipoli and the campaign in Greece are good examples. He also called Italy the "soft underbelly of the axis" A lot of good men, now dead would disagree with that. But, sometimes faulty execution dooms a good plan. Perhaps Gallipoli might fall into that category. Also it is well to remember that the enemy always gets a vote. As far as keeping Anzac troops in the European campaign while Japan threatened Australia I can only surmise that the British high command felt that the American forces and a few Commonwealth forces could hold out while it was more critical to keep Hitler contained. It is well to remember that Roosevelt and Churchill decided together that Germany was the greater threat and the US and Britain would concentrate on denying the Nazis access to the British Isles and thus providing a base to reoccupy Europe while fighting only a holding action in the Pacific. Remember, the US made no more than a token effort to save our troops in the Philipines and thus doomed them to death and captivity and to read about the fate of the naval forces in ABDA afloat during the struggle for Java makes one realise that it was always an exercise in futility. I will always remember Perth and Houston in Sunda Strait. However, of all the political leaders in WW2 including the enemy ones, I rate Churchill the best.

[davparlr]

Originally Posted by renrich

As far as keeping Anzac troops in the European campaign while Japan threatened Australia I can only surmise that the British high command felt that the American forces and a few Commonwealth forces could hold out while it was more critical to keep Hitler contained.

It is very difficult to maintain fighting morale against an enemy when your homeland is under attack by a different one. This is good way to lose an ally and I'm am sure Britain has paid for it in sore feelings.

Remember, the US made no more than a token effort to save our troops in the Philipines and thus doomed them to death and captivity and to read about the fate of the naval forces in ABDA afloat during the struggle for Java makes one realise that it was always an exercise in futility. I will always remember Perth and Houston in Sunda Strait. However, of all the political leaders in WW2 including the enemy ones, I rate Churchill the best.

I am not sure we could have saved the Phillipines and its defenders even if we had exercised all of our resources. We probably would have lost our several carriers in the attempt. We maybe could have extracted some troops but the Phillipinos would have had a great resentment for this. Japan had too much power in the area and the US had too little.

[drgondog]

sigh - I understand the Aussie viewpoint about the Kokoda Trail in WWII or Gallipoli in WWI. I understand the US soldier, sailor and airman about fighting a 'backwater war... but the focus was wa swhere it needed to be. We had the ability to put a protective shield around Australia even in 1942. The right decisions were made. We knew who had to be killed first.

I understand how much Chruchill wanted the US involved in WWII.

I believe that if Churchill was not in the political spectrum in 1939, Great Britain would have gone under in 1940, and I believe that he is the greatest single political figure of at least the 20th Century.

I don't care if someone discovers in the future that he collaborated with Hirohito and Tojo to plan Pearl harbor.

He gets my vote for the greatest man of the 20th Century - and maybe all time.


Often wrong , never uncertain

Bill

[ToughOmbre]

Originally Posted by drgondog

He gets my vote for the greatest man of the 20th Century - and maybe all time.

And the greatest orator...

"Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that, if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, "This was their finest hour."

Gotta love it!

[renrich]

Agreed, Bill and Tough