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06-18-2007, 03:12 PM
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#31 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: san antonio texas
Posts: 240
Country:  | here's my answer, might be inflamatory but what the hell. remove the media first because they are full of crap anyway and they have their own agenda and the truth is not on it. since you can't fight and insurgency with regular troops have them pull out to fob's and fight fire with fire. let's qiut f***ing around and play their game their way......but what do i know i'm just a soldier. | 
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06-18-2007, 05:19 PM
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#32 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Montrose, Colorado
Posts: 1,870
Country: | I am not sure what you are advocating but if you mean pull our troops into heavily protected areas and let Iraqis do the patrolling and local stuff with our people only striking in certain situations and in major force and with air strikes and also keeping Iran from capitalizing on our absence, then I think you are right on. | |
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06-18-2007, 05:43 PM
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#33 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 12,505
Country: | Quote:
Originally Posted by cougar32d  here's my answer, might be inflamatory but what the hell. remove the media first because they are full of crap anyway and they have their own agenda and the truth is not on it. since you can't fight and insurgency with regular troops have them pull out to fob's and fight fire with fire. let's qiut f***ing around and play their game their way......but what do i know i'm just a soldier. | I couldn't agree with you more!! 
__________________ "IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT"  | |
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06-18-2007, 10:28 PM
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#34 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: san antonio texas
Posts: 240
Country: | yes , renrich that is exactly what i mean with one exeption; fight dirty, an eye for an eye. | |
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06-19-2007, 12:20 AM
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#35 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: UK
Posts: 3,416
Country:  | I agree with many of the comments made IMO if a decision is made to send in troops by a government I feel it is important to give set goals (especialy the end one), stop keep altering them & Interfering with military matters this has cost more lives than anything in recent conflicts & once the balls rolling its too late to decide on a different course of action without causing real grief to those attempting to carry it out.
And I agree couger theres no such thing as half a war either let the guys do the buisness or dont send e'm in the first place. | |
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06-19-2007, 09:06 AM
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#36 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 28,557
Country:  | Quote:
Originally Posted by syscom3 Better to lose wars that are directed under civilians than to have a general create a dictatorship or escalate a war.
In Vietnam, the generals wanted us to Nuke N Vietnam.
In Cuba, starting a nuclear war not only was an option, but the prefeered option.
In Iraq, the generals didnt listen to their own staff's that said the post war period was going to require lots more troops. | Civilians do not know how to fight wars. True we need a civilian as a Secretary of Defense and the President will allways be the commander in chief and the Congress will allways pretty much have the most say but as I stated above Civilians do not know who fight combat.
Would you know how to lead men in combat, syscom? Would you know how to win a war?
No you would not...
How are you Mr Syscom (Civilian extrordinare who thinks he knows everything about the military and how to run it) going lead the troops in battle as a Civilian sitting in Washington..
Come on please tell me this...
I know you dont have an answer for it because you are dead wrong.
Oh and Generals not listening to there own staff? That is absolutely not true syscom! Please get your facts straight.
The worst battle of Iraq was fought in Washington. Every General that told Rumsfeld what needed to be done in a post war Iraq was relieved of command and "retired".
I was on the aircraft when our division commander asked him for more troops and he said no to him... and then later told the press that no one told him they needed more troops.
Please syscom when it comes to military matters, know your facts first, especially when it comes to the Iraq war.
__________________  US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life"
Last edited by DerAdlerIstGelandet : 06-19-2007 at 09:12 AM.
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06-19-2007, 09:07 AM
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#37 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 28,557
Country: | Quote:
Originally Posted by cougar32d mosul 03-04, baghdad 04-early 06 | Flew up to Mosul many times and Baghdad as well. We were based out of Tikrit but flew missions as south as Basra and Najaf and to all the camps in Baghdad, Samarrah, Kirkuk, Mosul, Irbel, Falujah, etc..
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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06-19-2007, 09:08 AM
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#38 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 28,557
Country: | Quote:
Originally Posted by cougar32d i apologize i'm not as eloquent a writer as some of your are but i'll try to put my thoughts down as best i can. a cililian 8000 miles away from the frontlines can't see what the commanders on the ground can (somalia). so how can they be in charge on any level? a good number of my brothers have died all over the world because of policies set by civilians who had no clue or business controlling the military | Well said but as you said, we are or were soldires wo what do we know?
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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06-19-2007, 12:11 PM
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#39 | | the old Sage
Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere
Posts: 8,663
Country: | our Drone serve'. teams are so advanced over anyones else they really should be implemented in much larger numbers, especially the big boyz with a varying degree of munitions | |
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06-19-2007, 12:59 PM
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#40 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 7,858
| Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet Civilians do not know how to fight wars. True we need a civilian as a Secretary of Defense and the President will allways be the commander in chief and the Congress will allways pretty much have the most say but as I stated above Civilians do not know who fight combat. | And Generals rarley have an understanding of the politics of a conflict. Quote: |
Would you know how to lead men in combat, syscom? Would you know how to win a war?
| Irrelevant. The issue is civilian control of the military. Quote: |
How are you Mr Syscom (Civilian extrordinare who thinks he knows everything about the military and how to run it) going lead the troops in battle as a Civilian sitting in Washington..
| Again irrelevant. In a democracy civilans control the military, not vice versa. Quote: |
I know you dont have an answer for it because you are dead wrong.
| Civilians have controlled the military for 220 years. Quote: |
Oh and Generals not listening to there own staff? That is absolutely not true syscom! Please get your facts straight.
| Seems we cant do the job without a LOT more troops than we have now. Wasnt there a general in 2003 who was forced into retirement because he said we would need 500,000 troops? He seems to be quite correct now, doesnt he? Quote: |
The worst battle of Iraq was fought in Washington. Every General that told Rumsfeld what needed to be done in a post war Iraq was relieved of command and "retired".
| Then the generals should have resigned in protest. They didnt, thus it was tacit approval of his program. Quote: |
Please syscom when it comes to military matters, know your facts first, especially when it comes to the Iraq war.
| You see things from your side, primarily a military one. I see them from a civilian side.
__________________
"Pilot to copilot..... what are those mountain goats doing up here in the clouds?" | |
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06-19-2007, 01:09 PM
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#41 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 28,557
Country: | Quote:
Originally Posted by syscom3 And Generals rarley have an understanding of the politics of a conflict. | On the Battle Field that is irrelevant. Generals know the tactics and the situation. A Civilian sitting in Washington or behind his computer like you does not. And therefore can not lead the troops on the battlefield. Quote: |
Originally Posted by syscom3 Irrelevant. The issue is civilian control of the military. | No it is not the issue. There will allways be civilians (ie. President, Sec Def, Congress) that are in charge of the overall scheme of things. That has never been the issue here, you just seem to be bringing up over and over.
The issue is the civilians should listen to there Commanders which they have not done very well. Quote: |
Originally Posted by syscom3 Again irrelevant. In a democracy civilans control the military, not vice versa. | No syscom you can not choose what irrelevant and what is not just because you dont like it. Life does not work that way, so get over it...
Again that was never an issue here, read what I said up there and that goes with this post again.
Now answer my question. How is a civilian going to win a war sitting behind a desk with no knowledge of how it is done?
Come on answer the question... Quote: |
Originally Posted by syscom3 Civilians have controlled the military for 220 years. | Again you keep bringing up things that are not even a part of the discussion. You have a real habit of doing that, when you have no answer to something. Quote: |
Originally Posted by syscom3 Seems we cant do the job without a LOT more troops than we have now. Wasnt there a general in 2003 who was forced into retirement because he said we would need 500,000 troops? He seems to be quite correct now, doesnt he? | What do you think I have been saying the whole time. If the civilians with no knowledge of how things should be done would have listened then we might not be in this situation.
Again your so called civilians should have listened to there commanders and that is why there is no room for civilians making decisions about the battlefield. Quote: |
Originally Posted by syscom3 Then the generals should have resigned in protest. They didnt, thus it was tacit approval of his program. | Does not quite work that way syscom. You dont resign from a combat zone and leave your troops to someone else. Quote: |
Originally Posted by syscom3 You see things from your side, primarily a military one. I see them from a civilian side. | Ofcourse but unfortunatly your side is wrong...
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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06-19-2007, 01:43 PM
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#42 | | the old Sage
Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere
Posts: 8,663
Country: | we must look at the brighter side of things..........hey there isn't one. Chris is right but on the other hand you really do not want a sole military man as pres either. One having experience is obviously beneficial, can't imagine the other Clinton getting in and waving her witches wand around 3 times thinking she can get our troops out of the mideast and back home and everything will just be fine and dandy.
Personally i wouldn't want anything to do with the presidentcy at this stage of the world even if someone paid me millions | |
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06-19-2007, 01:45 PM
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#43 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 12,505
Country: | I'll repeat...
"It's not a matter of the military dominating a civilian government. Its a matter of that civilian government telling the military to win a war and then restricting its resources."
Vietnam and now Iraq. That's the point Syscom. You don't sic the dogs on the bad guys and them tell them not to bite.
__________________ "IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT" | |
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06-19-2007, 01:49 PM
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#44 | | the old Sage
Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere
Posts: 8,663
Country: | power to the would be people, that is how it was done in Nam. Verbal, accusatory support, you don't like it we will impeach or better yet knock your salary and your cabinets too. then of course lie to the American public as much as you can, sour puss everyone to think we were all a bunch of sissy coward murderers in every village we walked through...........arg don't get me started. Walking out asking ourselves what the F*** were we there in the first place. It's wonder that all of us aren't screwed up ~
sorry gettin OT, back to my cave | |
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06-19-2007, 02:27 PM
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#45 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 7,858
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Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ I'll repeat...
"It's not a matter of the military dominating a civilian government. Its a matter of that civilian government telling the military to win a war and then restricting its resources."
Vietnam and now Iraq. That's the point Syscom. You don't sic the dogs on the bad guys and them tell them not to bite. | And if the generals see that the restrictions impede their ability to fight, then its their duty to resign to make their point.
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"Pilot to copilot..... what are those mountain goats doing up here in the clouds?" | |
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