What do you think of our current President?

[Njaco]

Exactly!

[Ham920]

You guys are very entertaining; when I read your replies to my comments I begin to smile and then chuckle out loud. This is obviously a conservative site – what did I expect from something called World War 2 Aircraft? In the military there is a predisposition to follow orders and believe the commander is always right even when they’re wrong. Take a look at your own poll. 90% of the respondents are either “lukewarm” or “hate” (your term not mine) George W. The reason for George’s unpopularity even in this poll on a conservative site is that the Republican Party has lead us into an unnecessary war and, per Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke, into economic recession. If the recession started in 2001, what has George W. done to avert it in the last 7 years? The Republicans don’t deserve to get back into office but you guys are probably too Right-wing to vote for a minority candidate. The world is changing whether we like it or not. “Father Knows Best” is not what everyone is watching anymore. You guys are so far to the Right you probably think Joe McCarthy was too liberal.

[mkloby]

Ham - you don't by chance wear a tin foil hat do you?

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Ham920

You guys are very entertaining; when I read your replies to my comments I begin to smile and then chuckle out loud. This is obviously a conservative site – what did I expect from something called World War 2 Aircraft?

Then why the hell do you come here - evidently you have little or nothing to contribute with regards to aviation so why don't you try the Che Guererra sympathizer’s forum?

Originally Posted by Ham920

but you guys are probably too Right-wing to vote for a minority candidate.

Spoken like a true liberal, not smart enough to address the cold facts so has to invent a problem - BTW I am a so-called minority

[ToughOmbre]

Originally Posted by Ham920

You make me laugh!

And you bore me to tears!

TO

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Ham920

You guys are very entertaining; when I read your replies to my comments I begin to smile and then chuckle out loud. This is obviously a conservative site – what did I expect from something called World War 2 Aircraft? In the military there is a predisposition to follow orders and believe the commander is always right even when they’re wrong. Take a look at your own poll. 90% of the respondents are either “lukewarm” or “hate” (your term not mine) George W. The reason for George’s unpopularity even in this poll on a conservative site is that the Republican Party has lead us into an unnecessary war and, per Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke, into economic recession. If the recession started in 2001, what has George W. done to avert it in the last 7 years? The Republicans don’t deserve to get back into office but you guys are probably too Right-wing to vote for a minority candidate. The world is changing whether we like it or not. “Father Knows Best” is not what everyone is watching anymore. You guys are so far to the Right you probably think Joe McCarthy was too liberal.

I noticed that you share a common characteristic with others of your 'type'. You can dish out diatribes about someone else's beliefs, but when others question yours or ask for facts you spin in another direction.

I asked you a question regarding examples where we have 'imposed' our beliefs and/or political syatem on others.. where are your facts?

You contrasted Iraq/Afghanistan to Vietnam. Facts please?

You said Bush 'played with the truth'. I cited Kennedy, Albright, both Clintons, Kerry and Cohen all sharing the same 'truth' as managed and directed by Tenant and asked you to comment on that.. but you dance away from these ugly comparisons

You cited Thomas Jefferson's famous belief that revolution should not be shied from.. ok - I asked you how often you felt was the 'right frequency' and what form you thought suitable as a replacement for our Republic? No response.

If you wish to advance thoughts - be a thinker, not a follower. Be thoughtful and factual and stay away from the Kool Aid.. engage in debate rather than sound bites with no substance. Guys here may not share your views but they will respect facts.

And, BTW - the FACT that as many people 'hate' bush in the Poll as 'lukewarm' on Bush and both overwhelm the 'love' Bush seem to a.) strongly argue against your grasp of facts when you label everyone 'conservative', and b.) reflect poorly on your perception of facts. If you had a clue you would note that many to most of the active posters are not Americans.. but you probably missed that little point also.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Ham920

You guys are very entertaining; when I read your replies to my comments I begin to smile and then chuckle out loud.

When we read your replies, many of us wonder whether you understand objective debate principles.. like back up a statement with three relevant and unimpeachable facts.. you remind one of a politician running for re-election.

This is obviously a conservative site – what did I expect from something called World War 2 Aircraft? In the military there is a predisposition to follow orders and believe the commander is always right even when they’re wrong.

Ah, but there is one elusive principle that I doubt you will ever understand. Every soldier, airman, marine and sailor -officer, NCO, enlisted - swears an oath to uphold the Constitution and defend it against enemies foreign and domestic.. not the President - not America.. and to obey all LAWFUL orders.

Whta guidlines do you swear an oath to? many of us would be interested in knowing of some form of higher principles if you are an example

Take a look at your own poll. 90% of the respondents are either “lukewarm” or “hate” (your term not mine) George W. The reason for George’s unpopularity even in this poll on a conservative site is that the Republican Party has lead us into an unnecessary war

What is your definition of war if you wish to cite Republican Party? The votes of Democrats to support an attack on Iraq? The lack of Republican input to Bosnia or the attacks on Iraq, Afghanistan/Taliban or Sudan aspirin factories during Clinton Admin? Did Clinton go to seek "UN Permission " for Bosnia? or cruise missle attacks in 1990's?

The Republicans don’t deserve to get back into office but you guys are probably too Right-wing to vote for a minority candidate. The world is changing whether we like it or not. “Father Knows Best” is not what everyone is watching anymore. You guys are so far to the Right you probably think Joe McCarthy was too liberal.

You are, respectfully, just plain silly..and amazingly arrogant and footloose with respect to facts. The world has always been changing. Power and alliances and influence change all the time.

I would say that the best thing we could do is have a clean sweep of every politician, left or right, that is either thinking "how can I put/keep my party in power" or "How can I line my pockets". That should eliminate about 90% of the Senate and House.. The Democrats for the past 50 years have been the icons of personal character destruction starting with LBJ in his campaign against Goldwater.

As to 'vote for a minority'?? Is your concept about leadership all about 'enfranchisement'? versus smart tough balanced leaders who care for all the people in the US but focused on the Constitution?

Obama is a charming, eloquent, smart liar. If a guy has a 96% Liberal rating far left of 70% of the American people - and he's babbling about 'unifying", where does he think the common ground is between his beliefs and the rest of the populace? and what example of 'unification/bi partisan' leadership would you cite for even his short tenure in the Senate?

Hillary is a smart liar. Same comments apply to her except she is a more compulsive liar than Obama and it is catching up to her.

McCain is a tough leader, tough person, pragmatic and sticks to his principles even when it's painful...

Both parties have lost their way but the Democrats most of all.

They are the party of "vote buying" by making people want to sit on their asses and take a handout. If you think otherwise regarding tax breaks for the upper 1/2 of 1% is the way to buy into powere versus appealing to the lower 20% via 'wealth' distribution, you are math challenged!

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by drgondog

The Democrats for the past 50 years have been the icons of personal character destruction starting with LBJ in his campaign against Goldwater.

Ain't that the truth!

Originally Posted by drgondog

They are the party of "vote buying" by making people want to sit on their asses and take a handout. If you think otherwise regarding tax breaks for the upper 1/2 of 1% is the way to buy into powere versus appealing to the lower 20% via 'wealth' distribution, you are math challenged!

Math challenged with socialist tendencies!

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Ham920

You guys are very entertaining; when I read your replies to my comments I begin to smile and then chuckle out loud.

If you do not like it here then please go and post in a different forum.

Unless you have something productive to say about aviation then by all means please leave. You have done nothing to contibute to this forum. Why the hell do you bother?

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Ham920

The reason for George’s unpopularity even in this poll on a conservative site is that the Republican Party has lead us into an unnecessary war and, per Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke, into economic recession. .

You may be untruthful but you also are prone to misrepresentations. Are you and Hillary related?

According to the extremely biased, Pro Bush, New York Times quote today, page C8 ( I spotted it wrapped around a cod).. I reproduce the NY Times quote of Bernanke's statement below.

"it now appears likely that real gross domestic product will not grow much, if at all, over the first half of 2008 and could even contract slightly" he said, "We expect the economic activity to strengthen in the second half of the year, in part as a result of stimulative monetary and fiscal policies"

Saying a recession is possible is different from your statement above characterizing his statements. Would you say that Bernanke's "statement", as you have re-stated in your words, is a reflection on Your (lack of) personal integrity?

BTW - I am not saying that we aren't in a recession..

[ToughOmbre]

Originally Posted by drgondog

Would you say that Bernanke's "statement", as you have re-stated in your words, is a reflection on Your (lack of) personal integrity?

Ham920 was probably duckin' sniper fire when he made that post.

TO

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by ToughOmbre

Ham920 was probably duckin' sniper fire when he made that post.

TO

TO - I suspect one of the Trollus Erectus found us looking for some validation that he exists and can continue his quest be be annoying but irrelevant. I am surrounded by them here at Gomorrah on the Bay..

The last thing he would be acquainted with would be sniper's fire.. hopefully that will change someday to give him a different perspective.

[renrich]

One who only makes unsupported statements portrayed as "facts" and doesn't even read the other member's posts thoroughly is hardly worth answering but here goes anyway. I said and you can confirm this that the economy was in recession although hardly mentioned by the media because it would hurt the democrat candidate in 2000, the election year. It was still in recession when Bush took office in Jan. 2001. If you recall his formula was that we needed a tax cut and he got one passed over the democrats objections but they got a time limit on it of 2010. Of course, 9-11 threw the economy further into a tail spin and the major hurricanes did not help. You ask what Bush did to curtail the recession. I would say that the tax cut helped. At any rate, we then had 52 consecutive months of job growth which is a record. Check it out. The job growth was probably helped by being in the Iraq War and deficit spending. I am not one who believes that the president controls the economy but rather he is at the mercy of it just like the rest of us. Once again, congress controls the purse strings(fiscal policy) and the Fed controls monetary policy. Both of those factors have an impact of the economy. The president can ask congress for appropriations or for tax cuts(Republicans) or increases(democrats) but congress controls fiscal policy. Even a liberal should know that. As far as this forum is concerned there are liberals and conservatives on it in all different gradations. Most are well informed, people of lots of experience with many of them either active duty or former military. They represent a pretty good cross section of people with common interests in history. I find the forum to be interesting and informative. New members would do well to talk softly until you know your way around. Being too aggressive without knowing your subject is a good way to get in over one's head in a hurry. I speak from experience.

[Njaco]

Ham is doing nothing but shouting "Fire!" in a crowded movie theatre. He doesn't stay around long enough to get into a "debate" but would rather post once a week without any facts, called members and politicians names and feel superior because he's sitting behind a screen getting over on everybody.

I don't even know why I'm doing this but.....Ham, many of your perceptions about us on this forum are DEAD WRONG! But you will never know that because you fail to investigate anything. The media loves people like you to spoon feed the garbage they throw out. As Adler has stated and I have posted in other threads, I'm lukewarm on Bush because he has made some mistakes during his term. The war was justified but the Exit Plan was faulty.

The Republicans don’t deserve to get back into office but you guys are probably too Right-wing to vote for a minority candidate.

You have no clue and the worst is you probably know it. I WOULD vote for a minority if he/she was QUALIFIED!!! But then again, being a conservative, this matters to me, whereas just being a minority is enough to get your vote. Its who they are not what they are that matters. Oh and BTW, its the Democratic party that is bringing up the race and feminist issues during this campaign - not conservatives. Such a party of compassion. NOT!

And this came to me. You called Bush a drunkard. Where is your liberal compassion? I understand alcholoism to be a disease. So are you making fun of someone's disease or handicap? Of course you are because, when you get right down to it, you're just as false as the Democratic party. What was it Churchill said, (to paraphrase) "In the morning I'll be sober, but you'll still be stupid!"

[davparlr]

I don’t need to address Ham920. This was done quite admirably by those posted above. Good job.

Well, I like President Bush for the most part. I think he is honest and earnestly desires to better American lives. Surprisingly, his biggest fault is loyalty. He maintained support of persons who should have been long removed. As for how he will be regarded by history, I think it will probably be considered more favorably than most think at this time. Let’s look at some important consideration and my grade.

National Security - A

The most significant National Security issue during this period was Islamic terrorist attacks against the U.S. If there are no successful attacks for the rest of the year, then the number of successful Islamic attacks against the U.S., outside of Afghanistan and Iraq, in the seven years since September 11, 2001, will be zero, in spite of several attempts. However, for the seven years before September 11, 2001, there were five successful attacks.

Oct. 12, 2000 - A terrorist bomb damages the destroyer USS Cole in the port of Aden, Yemen, killing 17 sailors and injuring 39.
Aug. 7, 1998 - Terrorist bombs destroy the U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. In Nairobi, 12 Americans are among the 291 killed, and over 5,000 are wounded, including 6 Americans. In Dar es Salaam, one U.S. citizen is wounded among the 10 killed and 77 injured.
June 25, 1996 - A bomb aboard a fuel truck explodes outside a U.S. air force installation in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. 19 U.S. military personnel are killed in the Khubar Towers housing facility, and 515 are wounded, including 240 Americans.
Nov. 13, 1995 - A car-bomb in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia kills seven people, five of them American military and civilian advisers for National Guard training. The "Tigers of the Gulf," "Islamist Movement for Change," and "Fighting Advocates of God" claim responsibility.
February 1993 - A bomb in a van explodes in the underground parking garage in New York's World Trade Center, killing six people and wounding 1,042.

So, from an historical perspective, it is apparent that Bush’s policies regarding attacks against the U.S. post 9-11 have been successful. My feelings are that this because of, not only increased security, but the war in Afghanistan and Iraq. In chess terms, the opposing king is under attack and has been forced into defensive measures. Radical Islam cannot afford to lose Afghanistan or Iraq and has preoccupied them. As a result, their leadership has been decimated and they have effectively been kept on the run.

War – Incomplete (no better than a C+)

Of course the main issue with Bush’s Presidency is the war in Iraq. Bush could still come out as changing the global stress for the better and stabilizing a vital part of the world if the war is won. The only way in which he will come out as engaging in a foolish war is if McCain is elected and the war is still lost. If Obama/Clinton is elected and start removing troops against recommendations, and the war is lost, the Democrats will take the brunt of wasting resources and life. The final chapter in this is yet to be written.

As far as legality of starting the war, I think it is well documented.
1. Multiple violations to the Persian Gulf War cease fire
2. Almost universal intelligence agreement that Iraq was a threat
3. 17 rejected UN demands
4. Congressional vote.

The war itself was masterfully executed, the follow-up was ineptly bungled. This bungling will be remembered as part of the Bush legacy no matter what the outcome is.
The charge of lying will be a non-starter since too much documented data exist that shows the Democrats effectively said the same thing Bush said. Bush only had the courage to act on the overpowering intelligence available at that time. By the way, if the Democrats had thought they had a case against Bush on lying, they would have impeached him. There were only a few quickly quenched comments on this.

Economy - A

I think this has been an historic economic run. At the start of 2001, unemployment was 4.2%, now it is around 5%. The stock market was at 10000 and now it is 12600, a 25% increase, data that is not too bad, not too great. The remarkable thing is how it withstood multiple catastrophic events. The first was the dot-com collapse starting in the Clinton term, followed by Enron collapse, neither of which could be blamed on Bush any more than many Presidents before him. Then came 9-11, with incredible impact, financially and emotionally, on the country. This was followed by TWO wars (see above) covering seven years, and then Katrina. On top of all of this, gas prices rose from about $1.50/gal to about $3.50/gal., again something Presidents have little control over. In spite of all this calamity, the economy has amazingly and historically continued to be strong (I believe it set a record for the most continuous months of growth). Deficits have been high but inflation (after all, we have been in a war) has been low and growth has been good, amazing. It is not likely that anything between now and December will affect the overall performance in spite of what the media tries.

Katrina - F

Incompetence at every level of government. The proportion of blame is as follows, most first:
1. City Government
2. State Government
3. Federal Government

Federal Court - A

Outstanding

Education - B

No Child Left Behind will be considered a milestone in educational policy. Some are not happy with some of the manifestations, especially teachers who don’t want to be graded on merit, and emphasis, and government getting involved, but it still will be an important legacy of Bush.

Immigration - C-

Big error here. He failed to understand that the U.S. was in no mood for amnesty after being fooled by government once before when the border was not protected.

Energy - C

Poor performance. There has been little change in the effort to relieve the U.S. dependency on foreign oil which continues to put our economy (see gas prices above) and well being in the hands of those who would just rather see us dead.

Corruption - C

No worse than any other administration. Politicians have never been known for high moral standards.

Conclusion – Better than average

Final conclusion will not be available until some outcome of the war in Iraq occurs. Overall, Bush Presidency was very stressful (nothing like Vietnam) due to violent activity associated with terrorist. History will record this and will record him as steadfast and decisive in action, and in my opinion, far better than the two alternatives we faced with.