What do you think of our current President?

[Haztoys]

Originally Posted by freebird

Hold on a minute here. The Brit's have a whole bunch of things to take blame for, but this isn't one of them.

The British resisted letting the Jews set up a state in Palestine {for some reason they suspected that it would bring conflicts?}

The Jewish people {with help from the US} were mainly responsible for instigating the set-up of Israel, in fact many British soldiers were killed by Jewish "freedom fighters" after WWII. {If they had been muslims we would call them terrorists }

You could be right Freebird ...I was "thinking" that the Brit's promised the land to the Jews if they would fight on there side in WW1 and backed out of it and in WW2 and backed out of it again...And thats when all the terrorist stuff started ..

Line me out if I'm wrong ...Do not want to have my info wrong...???

[pbfoot]

Originally Posted by Haztoys

You could be right Freebird ...I was "thinking" that the Brit's promised the land to the Jews if they would fight on there side in WW1 and backed out of it and in WW2 and backed out of it again...And thats when all the terrorist stuff started ..

Line me out if I'm wrong ...Do not want to have my info wrong...???

If I recall the Brits were running short on cash in WW1 and obtained a loan from the Rothchilds i believe but part of the deal was to give the Jewish guys a land in Palestine and it wasn't even theirs at the time I believe the Turks owned it. It was called the Balfour Declaration

[Arsenal VG-33]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

You calling me a liar because I happend to say something about your beloved French is insulting to me.

By calling BS on that you were implying that I was a liar, because it was something that was about you beloved French. I have never lied about a damn thing on this forum.

The funny thing is, I never had a problem with you. I disagreed with a lot of your opinions especially your belief that the French are the greatest thing since bread and butter and can do no wrong, but I never had a problem with you. I believe everyone is entitled to there own opinion.

I do however have a problem with someone when they call me a liar...

Adler,

I don't care if you or anyone else criticises France. I never said that "beloved" France was "off-limits" to any criticism. What I don't care for are accusations that I feel are made without any merit. If you have a problem with me defending the French from such obvious disdain, that is not my problem. And no, I don't think you were bashing the French.

About the bombs you saw. You specifically stated that France had sold them to Iraq a few years prior to the 2003 invasion. That would obviously be in clear violation of the sanctions. If you have pictures, then you should post them for the world to see. If not, then what markings did you see? Were they manufacturing marking? Expiry dates? Inventory or nomenclature markings? I would maintain that while France DID sell weapons to Iraq up to a certain time, I seriously doubt they did so during the embargo.

[Haztoys]

Now why would they leave the bombs still marked ..Just some thing "I" find strange ...

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Arsenal VG-33

Adler,

I don't care if you or anyone else criticises France. I never said that "beloved" France was "off-limits" to any criticism. What I don't care for are accusations that I feel are made without any merit. If you have a problem with me defending the French from such obvious disdain, that is not my problem. And no, I don't think you were bashing the French.

No discussing, and asking questions about what I said would have been fine. Calling it BS straight implies a lie.

I don't have a problem with you defending France, I said I dont agree with all of it, but you are entitled to your opinion.

Originally Posted by Arsenal VG-33

About the bombs you saw. You specifically stated that France had sold them to Iraq a few years prior to the 2003 invasion. That would obviously be in clear violation of the sanctions. If you have pictures, then you should post them for the world to see. If not, then what markings did you see? Were they manufacturing marking? Expiry dates? Inventory or nomenclature markings? I would maintain that while France DID sell weapons to Iraq up to a certain time, I seriously doubt they did so during the embargo.

I told you that I will post pics. I will find them and post them. I litterally have 1000s of pics that I have to go through.

The dates were on data plates (To be honest however, I doubt I will find a pic of a data plate. At the time that was the last thing I was thinking of taking a pic of).

As has already been pointed out by others. The weapons could have come from other countries. They were however French made bombs. Fact is fact.

Just as I do not have proper proof that they 100% were sold by France directly to Iraq, you can not prove that they did not.

I for one would not be surprise if they did sell them during the sanctions (not because I dont like the French, I have nothing against the Frech, except for there government which I have never liked), because many countries did and it is a very common thing. The farce called the UN was never able to enforce its sanctions.

Originally Posted by Haztoys

Now why would they leave the bombs still marked ..Just some thing "I" find strange ...

The bombs were left laying around because they ran off and abandoned the base. When we got there, there were still wrecks of aircraft, APC's and Tanks all over the place as well as ordinance still in bunkers.

[Kruska]

Originally Posted by freebird

Hold on a minute here. The Brit's have a whole bunch of things to take blame for, but this isn't one of them.

The British resisted letting the Jews set up a state in Palestine {for some reason they suspected that it would bring conflicts?}

The Jewish people {with help from the US} were mainly responsible for instigating the set-up of Israel, in fact many British soldiers were killed by Jewish "freedom fighters" after WWII. {If they had been muslims we would call them terrorists }

Hello freebird,

Don't worry, The British did actually term the Irgun, Hagana and Co. terrorists,
If I am not mistaken, it was actually the hour were the word terrorism was founded, before that I could not recall or wouldn't be aware of any historical text using that word.

Regards
Kruska

And Haztoys, again you forward statements which are totally wrong, out of context - just to prove your opinion, when will you start to check on something before you build your arguments and cases on it?

Check for the movement of Zion which originates in Russia in the 1890's, even Wiki... offers a very correct view on the establishing of Israel.

[Haztoys]

Fill me in Kruska ...What statement..The one about the Germans..We know that ones on the mark... Or on Abraham..Thats on the mark also ... A little off on the Brit's .But Mr Pd got it worded right .. On the US statement ?...Or the statement blaming the Israelis ?... Not sure were your digging on this one ...All my statements are all a reason for the mess over there ... And thanks for the Russian 1890 info ...A peace of the puzzle I did not know about ... Looks like we can put the Russians in the blame pot too ... I can even learn from you..Thanks for that ...Unlike you I can see its about half the world is to blame on the mess over there .. The US also...

My post was a statement on its a hard to point to one group as blame ..And it all depends what point in time you choose to start.. "My feelings" are to start with Abraham... But some want to start mid stream...And we all know that you could give a rip about that far back.. And as you have stated you now blame the Russians and it all started in 1890..

And yes it is ironic that the Israels started the terrorist thing and now have to deal with it..Never said they did not.. Did I.. Thanks for bring that up FreeBird you are right..?

I'm really trying to work on my approach here .. But you still want to dog me ..

One more time you need a new hobby.. Why do you have to be this way ..?.You really do have alot to give to the forum when it comes to WW2 matters...And please if you quote my post quote it all and not butcher it up as you do.. Please......

(I need to find out how to put my info into other post as the guys do here ...Not very good at the PC thing..).

[JugBR]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Is there a problem with that?

well mate, let me expose my issues and maybe you can help-me to understand the situation:

so you was there and you saw those weapons isnt ?

may i ask you why the bush administration didnt expose that for the average people ? it just doesnt make any sense to me...

you said UN was unefficient in the task of monitores the weaponry of iraq but as i remember, what colin powel, bush, rice and donald rummsfeld said was very clear, they issue was about nuclear, poison gas not conventional bombs. its is correct i presume you saw some kind of clue of development of those artefacts, or was just conventional weaponry ?

also is good to remember onde of the first(if wasnt the very first) terrorist action in iraq, was against the UN building. it killed sergio vieira de mello, an diplomat of UN know by his very honesty and transparency and also by its contribution in the peace process and independence of east timor.

also, they(bush & friends) very clearly issued about relations of saddan and al qaeda; "iraq and al qaeda, al qaeda and iraq" bush said many times. the war was to fight terrorism. iraq was known just by its militarists ambitions in the region, like the war iran x iraq, and the invasion of kuwait. also the strikes in israel and the massacre of kurds, but no hijackings, no bomb-mans, things like these and besides these weird saddan mad speeches, never was found any kind of relationship of him and the religious fanatics. did you find something to prove that saddan supported terrorists and he vas some relation with the last terrorists actions before the invasion ?

and how do you analize the situation of iraq now, when many fanatics from syria, lebanon, iran, jordania, saudy arabia, cross the borders to make terrorists actions in iraq ? and also many terrorist actions that kills the own iraqi civilians ?

what do you feel about those people, and how you see their reality ? and how they see the western coalition forces there ?

dont you believe a country wich reaches the freedon and the liberty by its own strugles is happier and less convulsive than a country wich reaches some kind of democracy imposed by a foreign power, but no freedon at all ?

dont you agree with me, the fear is a great weapon ?

may i talk about the crime industry in brazil at that time, the politicians have lots of resources to end with that, but they really prefer always fight the crime a little bit, kill some drug dealers and also some inocents of favelas but always letting some crime grow, because the people must have fear, that a grant of a faithful voter next elections, you know me ?

dont fool yourself with the promisse of politicians, you was in iraq risking your behind, bush dont. he can say what he wants, other people dont. the politicians works by machiavel principles. the evil should be made as quick as possible, to grant people should not reminds that too much, and the good should be made slowly and not quite, then you have the control over the population like the drug dealer have the control over the addict.

please dont fool yourself my friend !

reagrds

[renrich]

Sorry to have misquoted you. When you hunt me down, bring your lunch!

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by JugBR

well mate, let me expose my issues and maybe you can help-me to understand the situation:

so you was there and you saw those weapons isnt ?

French built weapons? Yes, why is that so hard to believe?

Originally Posted by JugBR

may i ask you why the bush administration didnt expose that for the average people ? it just doesnt make any sense to me...

Where have you been? It was in the news several times, 3 and 4 years ago. Why a very big deal was not made about it? I do not know. Maybe if you go back and read me and Kruska's conversation about it, you will might understand. If that is the reason, I do not know. I am fortunatly not a politician.

Originally Posted by JugBR

you said UN was unefficient in the task of monitores the weaponry of iraq but as i remember, what colin powel, bush, rice and donald rummsfeld said was very clear, they issue was about nuclear, poison gas not conventional bombs. its is correct i presume you saw some kind of clue of development of those artefacts, or was just conventional weaponry ?

I never brought up anything about WMD's, so please refrain from putting words in my mouth. It is a pretty shitty thing for you to do.

My comment (if you would actually read what people right before you make your commments) was directed at the fact that someone said that no weapons were sold to Iraq during the sanctions.

I said that is not true, they did recieve French and Russian weapons. Where they got them from, I do not know. I do however believe that any country (France, Russia, USA, etc) should be responsible for where weapons they produce ends up. I do however underatand (I am not naive...) that it is harder to do than one would think.

Again actually go back and read what people post before making condesending comments like you do...

Originally Posted by JugBR

also is good to remember onde of the first(if wasnt the very first) terrorist action in iraq, was against the UN building. it killed sergio vieira de mello, an diplomat of UN know by his very honesty and transparency and also by its contribution in the peace process and independence of east timor.

Please post proof that there were no Terrorist activities inside Iraq before the 2003 invasion. I do not think you can...

Originally Posted by JugBR

did you find something to prove that saddan supported terrorists and he vas some relation with the last terrorists actions before the invasion ?

Can you prove that there was not? I told you that I have seen terrorist training camps. These have been widely discussed in the news as well. You can be objective if you like, it is up to you.

Originally Posted by JugBR

and how do you analize the situation of iraq now, when many fanatics from syria, lebanon, iran, jordania, saudy arabia, cross the borders to make terrorists actions in iraq ? and also many terrorist actions that kills the own iraqi civilians ?

I have stated many many times before that the situation is terrible. I have seen it with my own eyes. I do however support the war. The problem in my mind, comes from the terrible mismanagement of the war by our government and higher command.

Originally Posted by JugBR

what do you feel about those people, and how you see their reality ? and how they see the western coalition forces there ?

I think only time will tell.

Originally Posted by JugBR

some kind of democracy imposed by a foreign power, but no freedon at all ?

They have way more freedom now then they did under Sadam. For crying out loud they can vote, more women are going to school, it is quite plane that they have more freedom.

Time though is the only thing that will tell how it all turns out.

Originally Posted by JugBR

dont you agree with me, the fear is a great weapon ?

I personaly think you are looking to much into it.

My recommendation, is to get on a plane and go visit the place, rather than only base opinions off what you watch in the news.

An honest fact is that the media blows a lot out of proportion, and they only show the negative things. They never show any good that is coming out of Iraq.

Originally Posted by JugBR

dont fool yourself with the promisse of politicians, you was in iraq risking your behind, bush dont.

Please do not even go there. You do not need to tell me how to live my life or who I believe in.

I decide what politician to vote for based off of my beliefs. That is why we are called a democracy...

Originally Posted by JugBR

please dont fool yourself my friend !

reagrds

Atleast I make up my own mind by my own free will.

I really dislike condescending people...

[renrich]

Chris, from someone who has been there, your remarks have incredible weight compared to the media and distant observers like me and others on this forum. Thank you!

[Njaco]

Ditto!

you and flyboy are guys who have opinion diferent of mine but i can recognize you are smart guys and not fanatic republicans.

I guess I can take the hit of being a "fanatic" republican although I consider myself conservative than repub. (And I voted "lukewarm" about the prez.) Somebody stand up and claim fanatical liberal?

In regards to the selling of French weapons to Iraq, I saw a show - from PBS/NPR no less! - that traced weapons and weapons parts from France, to other ME countries who then smuggled into Iraq with open borders mainly through Syria. Now I can't remember the show and like Kruska said, its only my opinion, but not all weapons sales, I believe, are on on the level with some of those governments and some turn a blind eye to these kind of deals. But I agree with Kruska and Arsenal that it was not done with the knowledge or consent of the respective governments as a whole.

As for terrorist training camps in Iraq: Off course Iraq had maintained several of these training camps, however a direct link to training Al Qaida has not been proven.

That wasn't the point! We did not go to Iraq because of Al Qaida, it was because of the training camps (among numerous other issues.) Its a War On Terror not just a War On Terror Caused by Al Qaida. In that quote you even admit that Saddam had training camps. Along with ALL the other problems Saddam was causing, that was one of the major reasons to go. It is a war on terror no matter where it germinates.

And it wasn't just Al Qaida. saddam harbored terrorists from all over. One of the most prominent....

Achille Lauro - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Abu Abbas left the jurisdiction of Italy and was convicted in absentia. In 1996, he made an apology for the hijacking and murder, and spoke out in favor of peace talks between Palestinians and Israel; the apology was rejected by the U.S. government and Klinghoffer's family, who insisted he be brought to justice. Abbas was captured in Iraq in 2003 by the U.S. military during its 2003 invasion of Iraq. He died in U.S. custody March 8, 2004."

as commented at the time of the arrest: ""One of our key objectives is to search for, capture and drive out terrorists who have found safe haven in Iraq," Central Command said in a statement."

But its just my opinion. And like Pb said, "I think everyone of us is misinformed in one way or another ...."

[Haztoys]

Originally Posted by renrich

Chris, from someone who has been there, your remarks have incredible weight compared to the media and distant observers like me and others on this forum. Thank you!

Here ..here on this

And there has been less terrorist these days out side of the Mid East...Muslims kill more Muslims then anyone..If you look they seem to be kill each other ..More then anything..And have sents time begain..Iraq like some other places in this world ... You hate the bad ruler but he keeps the peace ..No win deal..

I would think most countrys support terrorist in the mid east they feel Islam should rule the world ...UAE is the snake in the grass...Egypt is the only one "I" would say that does not...

[JugBR]

i also dislike condescending people but i have a different view about being condescendin than you. but i agrre with you in the part of "only time will tell". i also maybe wasnt there, but i read and watch the news. if the "liberal media" could blow up the facts, what foxnews does ?

[JugBR]

Originally Posted by Haztoys

Here ..here on this

And there has been less terrorist these days out side of the Mid East...Muslims kill more Muslims then anyone..If you look they seem to be kill each other ..More then anything..And have sents time begain..Iraq like some other places in this world ... You hate the bad ruler but he keeps the peace ..No win deal..

I would think most countrys support terrorist in the mid east they feel Islam should rule the world ...UAE is the snake in the grass...Egypt is the only one "I" would say that does not...

do you have any idea how all this began ?