What do you think of our current President?

renrich · 08-16-2008, 08:28 AM

Here we go again!

ToughOmbre · 08-16-2008, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bearcat

"and Obama... while I am impressed..."

OK, that begs the question? What impresses you about Obama?

His political associations?

His experience?

His leadership qualities?

His opposition to the 2nd amendment?

His support of partial birth abortion?

Or this disgraceful behavior.....

Three times in the Illinois legislature, Obama helped block a bill that was designed solely to protect the life of infants already born, and outside the womb, who had miraculously survived the attempt to kill them during an abortion. Three times, Obama voted to let doctors and nurses allow these tiny human beings die of neglect and be tossed out with the medical waste.

TO

Bearcat · 08-16-2008, 10:03 AM

I think he is intelligent, prudent, I think he delegates well, communicates well, has some good ideas... and the fact that he is less beholden to special interest groups than any of the other candidates save maybe Ron Paul helps. If he runs the country half as well as he has run his campaign.. against all those other "more experienced" candidates.. I think the country will be better off at the very least than it is now.

I wouldn't vote for McCain because while I respect him a great deal for many reasons... the prospect of having yet another president go senile while in the white house within one generation (assuming a generation is a 40 year period) really troubles me ... and GOD forbid it really takes hold in his second term.... if he lives that long... No thanks.. been there done that. The presidency has a way of making people look like John McCain does now after a term or two... and I don't want some guy that was hand picked by him and not the people running the country... Sure the people would have elected "the ticket" (Well.... not the people actually... since as we saw in 2000 the people really don't count anymore.... but you know what I mean..) but the would have voted for McCain regardless....

If there is one thing I have taken from the past 4 years it s that just because a candidate supports a few issues that are very important issues.. doesn't mean that he will make a good president.. and just because he doesn't does not mean he wont.

I wont get sucked into the one or two hot issue bit again. Ever... I render unto Caesar what is his and to GOD what is his... My politics and my religion are two separate things because whoever I vote for, no matter what he says at election time will not have my faith.. he will have his own.. and that will be between him & GOD... not he & I.

GWB was opposed to gay marriage & abortion... but he is all for the bribery (oh... did I say bribery? I meant lobbying.... ) and corruption that has been rampant in his administration that allows the $300 toilet seat fiasco of the 70s & 80s look like a minor rafffle rip off. The way that Haliburton & some of it's subsidiaries are so blatantly allowed to just gouge the taxpayers.. while so many are loosing their homes , their jobs etc...... and lets not talk about the price gouging oil companies... or the insurance companies... or the drug companies... who have congress all bought & paid for. This nation has become like that city mentioned in Isaiah chapter one...

I also realize that that has been thee for some time & that it did not start with GW and wont end with whoever is in the white house next one but Dubya's poor judgment has cost thousands of lives... tens of thousands if you consider the Iraqi civilians and members of other nations whose lives were lost or ruined by the poorly concieved and executed war in Iraq. Had he had the judgment to just listen to his then secretary of state & JCS... instead of that pencil pushing Rumsfeld and Darth Vader... things might have gone differently...

Yeah the surge is working.... for now... but I am sure that there are thousands of folsk worldwide who would have rather had SoDamn insane and his twi biological WMDs... Uday & Qusay.. still around rather than the bloodshed that has gone on over there for over five frickkin years...

You want to talk morality? Pffttt...

I think Obama would have made better choices than GW even where he was in 2000 .... I cant help but wonder how this might have panned out of the 200 election had not been stolen in the first place... and I overlooked all that in 04.. because I wanted to support our president and felt that changing horses in the middle of the ride was a bad idea.... and I voted more my own personal sensibilities than the track record of the candidate... or the potentialk track record...

I wont do that again...

ToughOmbre · 08-16-2008, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bearcat

I think Obama would have made better choices than GW even where he was in 2000...

First of all, there's no way you can prove that. Second, don't compare B. Hussein Obama to GWB; he's running against McCain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bearcat

I cant help but wonder how this might have panned out of the 2000 election had not been stolen in the first place

"Stolen"? I knew I could get a Democrat/liberal/far left talking point out of you. And speaking of talking points, you didn't answer any of my questions; you just talked around them.

TO

FLYBOYJ · 08-16-2008, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bearcat

GWB was opposed to gay marriage & abortion... but he is all for the bribery (oh... did I say bribery? I meant lobbying.... ) and corruption that has been rampant in his administration that allows the $300 toilet seat fiasco of the 70s & 80s look like a minor rafffle rip off. The way that Haliburton & some of it's subsidiaries are so blatantly allowed to just gouge the taxpayers..

Just for the record - the "toilet seat" actually was sold the the government for around $339.00 - and it was a fire resistant thermoplastic similar to what you would make the hood or fender out of for a race car. It really wasn't a "seat" but a cover that went over the entire latrine system.

Lockheed actually over charged the government about $30.00 a seat, that money was refunded but that was never reported in the media.

I worked on the P-3 program at the time and audited the vendor who produced these covers after this was reported.

Although I don't rate Halliburton as a model government contractor, I'd like you to show evidence where Halliburton was ultimately allowed to get away from overbilling the government? BTW, please look at the links below...

Halliburton Unit to Pay $8 Million for Overbilling - washingtonpost.com

Kerry-Edwards 2004: Halliburton Fined for Accounting Gimmicks While Cheney was CEO | U.S. Newswire | Find Articles at BNET

Bearcat · 08-16-2008, 12:09 PM

Hmmmm Democrat/liberal/far left... With all due respect you don't know much about my politics.. not yet anyway.. unless you have frequented a few other boards that I do... because I haven't said much.... You know what they say happens when you assume...

IMO the political landscape of the U.S. and the issues involved are far to complicated tp be polarized into a right/left notion.. at least for me. There are some issues I lean to the left on and others I lean to the right on... I happen to think that government's first responsibility is to it's citizens... and while it is true that business keeps the economy going... business should not be allowed to rip off the government.. and anyone who promotes the notion , especially on the scale that we see, and have been seeing for decades.. should be jailed.

You are absolutely correct... there is no way I can "prove" that Senhator Obama would have made better choices even 7 years ago than Dubya did at the time.. but that's my opinion which I am entitled to and I don't have to prove to you or anyone else n these or any other boards for that matter.

I answered your questions.. I just didn't give you the answers you felt should be forthcoming if you read my post you will find answers to some of your points.. and some you didn't raise... including some of my political leanings..

AS for Obama's "associations" show me a politician with squeaky clean hands and I'll show you the P-51 I have in my garage.. but from my understanding of the situation many of the "associations" that so many Obamanoids are up in arms about and many of the issues raised period about him have already been either disproven as far as the level of association or proven as outright lies.

Experience is relative.... IMO anyway... I think having good judgment, being able to analyze a situation and act accordingly and an eye for delegating the right folks for the job is more essential. No president had "experience" at being president... unless he was an incumbent.. and that doesn't always help.

The 2nd amendment... a touchy issue... IMO it should stand... I also personally believe wholeheartedly that the day Americans loose that right... to bear arms will be the day we will be ripe for overt plunder, as opposed to the covert plunder that our current & past leadership (and by current I don't mean just republican either.. ) has been allowing to go on for decades. IMO it is a moot issue in a campaign since Obama (or anyone else for that matter) alone regardless to where he stands on the issue will not be able to singlehandedly overturn it....

The same canbe said for a candidates' opinion on abortion. For the record I think abortion is wrong... and PBA is blatantly wrong and should be banned altogether regardless to what happens to the rest of R vs W, as there is just no reason for it... at that stage even if the mother's life is in danger the fetus can be taken and saved and the danger to the mother averted in most cases. I do however think that it should not be made totally illegal... I believe that in the case of rape or where the life of the mother is in danger... a woman should be able to make a choice without breaking the law... either way she will have to answer to a higher law.. but considering that over 90% of the abortions in this country do not fall in that category... (mother's life in danger... rape) again... a change in the law is not out of the question but education and other options should also be pronmoted more.. like abstinance and adoption.. as it exists in this country if it is totally repealed all that will do is drive it underground and again... Obama by himself cannot affect that change... so his opinions on the matter are not as important as many would make out and a smoke screen.

We need to be more concerned with why gossip about celebrities (and these stupid "reality" shows are the same crap IMO.. and many of them are about celebrities.. ) occupies so much of our media... why the same corporations who are bribing our politicians and sucking the taxpayer tit dry are the same corporations that control the media to a large extent... We need to be concerned with why we have a society that across the board tries to emasculate it's men, pimp it's women, marginalize it's young.. by teaching them to memorize rather than to THINK, discards it;s elderly and muders it's children in the womb... all as a matter of course....

BTW good links Fly... I sw it after I wrote this post...

What about the open ended "we will pay you $XXX,XXX over whatever you spend" contracts in Iraq, which do nothing but promote companies to spend as much as they can... extreme waste...... the $100 a bag laundry deal.... and more... and as for Haliburton paying for overbilling... I guess the real question is... how much did they overbill and how much was not caught.. $8million is a paltry sun when juxtaposed to hundreds of millions... or billions...

FLYBOYJ · 08-16-2008, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bearcat

BTW good links Fly... I sw it after I wrote this post...

What about the open ended "we will pay you $XXX,XXX over whatever you spend" contracts in Iraq, which do nothing but promote companies to spend as much as they can... extreme waste...... the $100 a bag laundry deal.... and more... and as for Haliburton paying for overbilling... I guess the real question is... how much did they overbill and how much was not caught.. $8million is a paltry sun when juxtaposed to hundreds of millions... or billions...

What is perceived as over billing and a poor contract that is basically giving money away to a contractor is a blurred line IMO. I've worked on government contracts for a good portion of my 30 years plus in the aviation business and I have seen waste and corruption from both sides, but unless you're in the business no one has first hand experience on how the system really works.

Bribes and corruption have been placed in check since the 1980s, no denying its still there but you could bet dollars to doughnuts those committing contractor crimes will eventually get caught (just ask Duke Cunningham). Bottom line the defense logistics system is not as corrupt and screwed up as the media would lead you to believe, sure improvement is always warranted but no system is perfect.

$100 laundry bags - read the contract and find out the details. If it was truly "let" to the contractor in that form then there are folks within the DoD who need to be hung.

BTW - Haliburton? Small potatoes - the last time I looked into their DoD contracts they're like 34th on the list. They get so much attention because of Cheney and his former ties to the company.

Bearcat · 08-16-2008, 01:10 PM

Points taken..

ToughOmbre · 08-16-2008, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bearcat

Hmmmm Democrat/liberal/far left... With all due respect you don't know much about my politics.. not yet anyway.. unless you have frequented a few other boards that I do... because I haven't said much....

Your statement about the "stolen" 2000 election tells me alot about your politics. Haven't talked with any Bush voters, like yourself, who then come and say the election was stolen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bearcat

You are absolutely correct... there is no way I can "prove" that Senhator Obama would have made better choices even 7 years ago than Dubya did at the time.. but that's my opinion which I am entitled to and I don't have to prove to you or anyone else n these or any other boards for that matter.

No one is saying your not entitled to your opinion, but how about backing it up with some facts?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bearcat

AS for Obama's "associations" show me a politician with squeaky clean hands and I'll show you the P-51 I have in my garage.. but from my understanding of the situation many of the "associations" that so many Obamanoids are up in arms about and many of the issues raised period about him have already been either disproven as far as the level of association or proven as outright lies.

Yea, but....

Rev. Wright is an America hating piece of Sh#t. And Obama did throw him under the bus once his poll numbers strted to slip.

William Ayers and his wife are terrorists whose actions caused the deaths of American citizens.

With friends and associates like that, who needs enemies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bearcat

Experience is relative.... IMO anyway... I think having good judgment, being able to analyze a situation and act accordingly and an eye for delegating the right folks for the job is more essential. No president had "experience" at being president... unless he was an incumbent.. and that doesn't always help.

No, experience is experience, and he's had next to none on any level.

No comment on Obama's leadership qualities?

And he had great judgement sitting in that hate-filled church for 20 years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bearcat

The 2nd amendment... a touchy issue... IMO it should stand... I also personally believe wholeheartedly that the day Americans loose that right... to bear arms will be the day we will be ripe for overt plunder, as opposed to the covert plunder that our current & past leadership (and by current I don't mean just republican either.. ) has been allowing to go on for decades. IMO it is a moot issue in a campaign since Obama (or anyone else for that matter) alone regardless to where he stands on the issue will not be able to singlehandedly overturn it....

Didn't ask you what you thought about the 2nd amendment, but your take on Obama's view.

And how about Supreme Court appointtees?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bearcat

The same canbe said for a candidates' opinion on abortion. For the record I think abortion is wrong... and PBA is blatantly wrong and should be banned altogether regardless to what happens to the rest of R vs W, as there is just no reason for it... at that stage even if the mother's life is in danger the fetus can be taken and saved and the danger to the mother averted in most cases. I do however think that it should not be made totally illegal... I believe that in the case of rape or where the life of the mother is in danger... a woman should be able to make a choice without breaking the law... either way she will have to answer to a higher law.. but considering that over 90% of the abortions in this country do not fall in that category... (mother's life in danger... rape) again... a change in the law is not out of the question but education and other options should also be pronmoted more.. like abstinance and adoption.. as it exists in this country if it is totally repealed all that will do is drive it underground and again... Obama by himself cannot affect that change... so his opinions on the matter are not as important as many would make out and a smoke screen.

I respect your stand on abortion, but again, I asked you what you thought about Obama's extremist views on the subject.

And I'll ask a second time. What about this.....

Three times in the Illinois legislature, Obama helped block a bill that was designed solely to protect the life of infants already born, and outside the womb, who had miraculously survived the attempt to kill them during an abortion. Three times, Obama voted to let doctors and nurses allow these tiny human beings die of neglect and be tossed out with the medical waste.

Judicial appointments affect change more than any single action a president can take.

BTW, most of what your "answers" are your views on the issues, not Obama's.

TO

renrich · 08-16-2008, 02:07 PM

I see we have a wordsmith on the forum. A picture of the redtails. Interesting combination. Should be enjoyable. Already is! Someone name one qualification that Obama has that makes him fit for president. Name one meritorious thing he has accomplished in his lifetime that would make him a good leader. I doubt that with his background and with the people he has surrounded himself with that he could even get a top secret clearance.

pbfoot · 08-16-2008, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by renrich

I see we have a wordsmith on the forum. A picture of the redtails. Interesting combination. Should be enjoyable. Already is! Someone name one qualification that Obama has that makes him fit for president. Name one meritorious thing he has accomplished in his lifetime that would make him a good leader. I doubt that with his background and with the people he has surrounded himself with that he could even get a top secret clearance.

Public speaking

renrich · 08-16-2008, 06:27 PM

Someone who spouts platitudes and generalities in a clever way doesn't make a good leader. A good leader does not necessarily have to be a good orator. Eisenhower was a good leader, particularly when he was SHAEF but not very adept at public speaking.. Hitler was a good speaker but a lousy leader.

Bearcat · 08-16-2008, 07:23 PM

Quote:

IMO it is a moot issue in a campaign since Obama (or anyone else for that matter) alone regardless to where he stands on the issue will not be able to singlehandedly overturn it....

As for his church..."Hate filled?" Really? Filled? I dunno.... I just cant judge an entire church.. or even a pastor for that matter... who served honorably in the Marine Corps by the way.. enough to say that it is hate filled.. based on what.. all of at the absolute most 45 minutes .. OK for the sake of this discussion I'll say what the hey... 3 hours.... of inflammatory rhetoric over 20 years.... enough to say that it is hate filled.. but that's me...

The really interesting thing is... this poll was titled....

Quote:

What do you think of our current President?

Now I believe that I answered that pretty clearly... yet [i]at the mere mention of.... Obama... Ooooobaaaaaaammmmmaaaaaaa ...

OOOOooOoOOOOooooooo shashashashashashasha (Queue the Friday the 13th here comes Jason music..)

The thread gets turned into "WTF is so great about that Obama bastige?"

LMAO.. I find that really wild.

It reminds me of another place.. back in the day... where if you said anything even remotely complimentary about ANY American aircraft... you had guys coming out of the woodwork telling you how wrong you were and not only that who the h@ll are you to think the P-47 was anything but a slow lumberig mule?

Either way we shall see... and either way.. to quote Ms. Channing.. "Fasten your seatbelts it's going to be a bumpy night... "

Erich · 08-16-2008, 07:32 PM

lets make this simple ok ? this thread really isn't about Obama or McCain so agree on just talking about the the current guy n office. Besides Ob and Mc may never see the office, it is a long way away and wonder if both parties have thought of the evil what-if and who would be # 2 choice, do the dems pick the witch of Endor ? there sure isn't anything to speak of for the repubs

heck both parties are screw'd with their # 1's anyway...in fact we all are in the states

ToughOmbre · 08-16-2008, 07:47 PM

You're right Erich. Sorry to get off topic. Any more I have to say about B. Hussein will be on an Obama thread.

TO