What wonderful new laws do you expect from a Clinton/Obama administration?

[mkloby]

Originally Posted by Njaco

screw wealth distribution!

Parm, you do realize that the opposite of that is socialism? Sqeezing the middle class is what ALL politicians do well, but to take money from the rich to give to the poor so all things are equal is pure socialism.

Where is the dream? I want to work hard to get comfortable in my life. And I will fight any do-good a##wipe that wants to take my money and give it to some slob who can't get off their a## even to change the channel on the TV! You're right, the recent Republican administration may have helped the rich, who knows, thats the mantra of the liberals (rich liberals BTW) but I have no beef against anybody who works hard to become rich. Thats what I strive to do and what is wrong with that? What the hell am I working for if 1) Its wrong to be rich and 2) everything will be given me by the government. Is that the way it should be?

Agreed. I hate this BS about rich getting richer and poor getting poorer. No place has upward mobility like the United States. Parm - taxes to control corporate profits??? Most economists will tell you that is an anti-growth policy, and will be detrimental for everybody in the long term. Not to mention I believe the US has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the western world. Oh - and corporate profits are also double taxed, as they are taxed a 2nd time when distributed to shareholders. Don't anti-capitalists remember that corporate profits are distributed to shareholders? It is possible for working and middle class individuals to own stocks/funds and benefit from successful corporations in that way, in addition to the jobs and cheaper goods provided.

[renrich]

Well said Njaco, I too have wondered about the possibility of slick willie as VP. That would be a comedy. Interesting article in WSJ yesterday that shows how the huge rise in GDP in recent years has resulted in income increase that has generally been evenly distributed among rich and poor. One factor that enables the left to create the impression that family incomes for the poor have not kept pace with the affluent is that family size has shrunk. In 1970 the single person household comprised 17% of the total. Today the single person household is a whopping 27% of the total. The average household in that time has gone from 3.14 people to 2.57. In 1970, 71% of households were two parent households. Today only 51% have two parents. It is obvious that that the number of income earners in a family is shrinking which has an enormous effect on average family income. Of course the dems are using average family income growth to try to show how the economy has neglected low income families and of course, their lap dogs, the media are helping. Another interesting fact is that, since 2000, the year Bush was elected, the GDP has increased by 18%. Our population has increased in that period by 6%. Everyone's slice of the pie has gotten larger.

[ccheese]

Originally Posted by Njaco

Heres a thought.....

If the Witch does get the Dems nomination, is there anything keeping her from running Slick Willie as VP?

Now, there is a thought, dear hearts.... What a combination !!


Charles

[plan_D]

Just to hammer home mkloby's point, I am working class and am currently investing a total of £12,000 into an investment fund that I hope will make £12,000 look more like £17,000 - £20,000. To do this the coporations that I have invested in have to grow and be successful - ... so I hope that everything continues to grow and the 'rich' get richer so I can join them. It's all aspiration ! Work for your money, manually or by using your brain ... I don't want a freakin' hand out and I don't think anyone else able should get one.

Of course, if that £12,000 becomes more than £20,000 - the more its worth the better !! And I do plan on investing more when I get the money ... why work for a living when your money can do it for you ?!

[Njaco]

and that is the point, Plan. You said it, working class able to control what you do with your money. God, what a horrible thought to the liberals! You mean anybody can make enough money to live comfortably? Oh horrors!!

To me that is the power of this country, the ablility of each and every citizen to command their future. Through money, hard work and ethics. But never tell a dem that because you can't do anything without the government. And you have to pay for that.

I don't understand all this gripping about economy and downturns and recession. I remember when unemployment was 10% in the early 80s and we were looking forward to good times. Now its around 5% and we're freaking out!?

But that fear may be realized if they get in.

[plan_D]

For me, the economy of Great Britain is not high on my thoughts list. The reason being that all Britain does is tax us, the new budget will just mean more expense for us. In Britain it's not the rich getting richer, it's the government getting richer and it isn't passed to the Briton - it's passed to the immigrant and leach.

I'm not on a lot of money (£14,000 a year - £7,000 below national average) but with that money I've managed to pay the bills (mortgage is mostly covered by my dads RAF pension), keep two cars running (both 1.6 litre - £180 a year tax), pay for college, invest in the stock market and have some cash savings. I'm sure that's a scary thought for U.S liberals - a young working class white straight male being able to look after his money; never! And I still have money to go out every now and then (not as much as 20 year old should... but I get by).

The reason I have to pay all the bills is because my dad is unemployed, has been for over a year. Ageism is still ripe in the U.K - as soon as you hit 50, you're unemployable (he's 54).

[Njaco]

Same here Plan and I love the line "it's passed to the immigrant and leach". That says it all.

I know what you mean. I make about $60,000 here, have a 5 bdrm apt., I pay child support (over $300 a week with a credit of $4000), have 2 cars and still live ok. Could I do with more? Sure, and if I needed I would work somewhere - I have had 3 jobs at the same time before. But I am the citizen with the red bull's eye on his back when some politico comes looking to fund his entitlement program. Thats what kills me with this immigration. The job market collapse? Grab those lazy leeches in the unemployement line and put them to work.

You want to see an economy collapse, elect either the Witch or Olabama. The programs they would support would destroy the US.

[renrich]

Not only their domestic programs will hurt our country but, especially with Obama, they will disarm us and we will lose the war against Islamic fascism.

[renrich]

This a hilarious. Geraldine Ferraro made a true statement, that if obama was not black he would not be in the running for president and she is being heavily criticised. I have no great regard for geraldine but it is too bad when someone tells the truth and gets pilloried for it. The ironic thing is that the candidate she supports, hillarita, would not be a strong candidate if she was not a woman(I think.)

[Njaco]

Now she quit and is saying that the Olabama camp perpetrated this remark. Ths on NBC! I love it. I hope they both self-destruct!

[plan_D]

It's the same old story here Njaco. The pro-immigration idiots use the argument that the immigrants are providing workers for Britain, without them our economy would be crippled. I don't believe Britain's economy was crippled in the 1960s when immigration was officially 50,000 a year (as opposed to 'official' 600,000 a year now). And how can these immigrants be such a large benefit and provided labour for all these jobs ... and there still be unemployment? The fact of the matter is all the native white British (yes, British people are WHITE ! Horror.) that stand in the unemployment line with their baseball caps pointing into the sun and stupid made up accents should be put to work. Then when unemployment is below 1% maybe then you can start thinking about brining foreign workers in ... and MAKE them work instead of providing benefits that defeats the whole object of foreign WORKERS.

I mean, this country brought in blind 'electricians' and one legged 'roofers' under the claim that they were skilled workers. All these dumb sh*ts working in immigration need taking outside and hanging from poles at the entrance of the Channel Tunnel ... as a warning to anyone else trying to sneak in. Sorry, but with the way this country is going is anyone surprised that the number of votes going to the BNP is increasing every year ?

But Britain's always been the same; Enoch Powell got suspended in '68 for the Rivers of Blood speech (smart man, and absolutely right). The whole country kicked up in a riot for him to be brought back, and the MAJORITY of the nation wanted him prime minister. Everyone knew that if a general election was held with him at the head of the conservative party ... he'd have won. But British government strikes again - we know better than the people !!! We'll keep swamping Britain with immigrants because they haven't got a clue , we know better from our completely safe ivory towers ... guarded by the police and bodyguards ... we don't know what they're talking about - more black on white violent crimes than white on black ? Throw them reports away...must be false.

And they go on about how much Polish workers do ? They work 80 hour weeks ... even 100 hour weeks (which is illegal) ... well I do 80 hour weeks, I don't get praise. And I know a load of British in my place that would do 80 hour weeks with the chance... But all the work British do (least holidays and longest hours in Western Europe) ...turns us to drink - hence the binge drinking on the weekend ... because we have nothing else to do but work and drink. So what does the greedy mother f*cking government do ...we'll charge 'em more to do it ! That'll stop it ! No it won't and they know it won't ... less working hours, better pay and more holidays would stop binge drinking much sooner than charging us more. But golden pocket wobbly gob in charge and his ponce Darling ! (Blackadders: "Last time I called someone darling she was pregnant 20 seconds later") love to rob us ... thieving bast*rds, hang 'em...

Sorry, about American politics ....

[Njaco]

...ummmm....sorry about British politics. I feel your pain. I could say something but it would just be repeating what you said.

Where has common sense gone?
Where has fairness gone?
Where has rational gone?
Where has the guts and balls to say I'm Not Going To Take It Anymore! gone?
Where has equality gone?

Jeez, I could go on but ...we're not 3rd world countries with cultures that are unflexible. Is that the weakness thats being exploited?

The meek shall inherit the earth?

[Njaco]

sorry to double post but just got this in an email:

What if 20 Million Illegal Aliens Vacated America?

Tina Griego, journalist for the Denver Rocky Mountain News wrote a
column titled, "Mexican Visitor's Lament" -- 10/25/07.

She interviewed Mexican journalist Evangelina Hernandez while visiting Denver last week. Hernandez said, "They (illegal aliens) pay rent, buy groceries, buy clothes.. .What Happens to your country's economy if 20 million people go away?" That's a good question - it deserves an answer.
Over 80 percent of Americans demand secured borders and illegal migration
stopped. But what would happen if all 20 million or more vacated America?
The answers may surprise you!

In California, if 3.5 million illegal aliens moved back to Mexico, it would leave an extra $10.2 billion to spend on overloaded school systems, bankrupt hospitals and overrun prisons. It would leave highways cleaner, safer and less congested. Everyone could understand one another as English became the dominant language again.

In Colorado, 500,000 illegal migrants, plus their 300,000 kids and grand-kids - would move back 'home', mostly to Mexico. That would save Coloradans an estimated $2 billion (other experts say $7 billion) annually in taxes that pay for schooling, medical, social-services and incarceration costs. It means 12,000 gang members would vanish out of Denver alone.

Colorado would save more than $20 million in prison costs, and the terror that those 7,300 alien criminals set upon local citizens. Denver Officer Don Young and hundreds of Colorado victims would not have suffered death, accidents, rapes a nd other crimes by illegals.

Denver Public Schools would not suffer a 67 percent drop-out/flunk-out rate because of thousands of illegal alien students speaking 41 different languages. At least 200,000 vehicles would vanish from our gridlocked cities in Colorado.

Denver's four percent unemployment rate would vanish as our working poor would gain jobs at a living wage.

In Florida, 1.5 million illegals would return the Sunshine State back to America , the rule of law, and English.

In Chicago, Illinois, 2.1 million illegals would free up hospitals, schools, prisons and highways for a safer, cleaner and more crime-free experience.

If 20 million illegal aliens returned 'home' --

If 20 million illegal aliens returned 'home', the U.S. Economy would return to the rule of law. Employers would hire legal American citizens at a living wage. Everyone would pay their fair share of taxes because they wouldn't be working off the books. That would result in an additional $401 Billion in IRS income taxes collected annually, and an equal amount for local, state and city coffers.

No more push '1' for S panish or '2' for English. No more confusion in American schools that now must contend with over 100 languages that degrade the educational system for American kids. Our overcrowded schools would lose more than two million illegal alien kids at a cost of billions in ESL and free breakfasts and lunches.

We would lose 500,000 illegal criminal alien inmates at a cost of more than $1.6 billion annually. That includes 15,000 MS-13 gang members who distribute $130 billion in drugs annually would vacate our country.

In cities like L.A., 20,000 members of the '18th Street Gang' would vanish from our nation. No more Mexican forgery gangs for ID theft from Americans! No more foreign rapists and child molesters!

Losing more than 20 million people would clear up our crowded highways and gridlock. Cleaner air and less drinking and driving American deaths by illegal aliens!

America's economy is drained. Taxpayers are harmed. Employers get rich. Over $80 billion annually wouldn't return to the aliens' home countries by cash transfers. Illegal migrants earned half that money untaxed, which further drains America's economy - which currently suffers an $8.7 trillion debt.

At least 400,000 anchor babies would not be born in our country,costing us $109 billion per year per cycle. At least 86 hospitals in California, Georgia and Florida would still be operating instead of being bankrupt out of existence because illegals pay nothing via the EMTOLA Act.

Americans wouldn't suffer thousands of TB and hepatitis cases rampant in our country-brought in by illegals unscreened at our borders.

Our cities would see 20 million less people driving, polluting and grid locking our cities. It would also put the 'progressives' on the horns of a dilemma; illegal aliens and their families cause 11 percent of our greenhouse gases.

Over one million of Mexico's poorest citizens now live inside and along our border from Brownsville, Texas to San Diego, California in what the New York Times called, "colonias" or new neighborhoods. Trouble is, those living areas resemble Bombay and Calcutta where grinding poverty,filth, diseases, drugs, crimes, no sanitation and worse. They live without sewage, clean water, streets, electricity, roads or any kind of sanitation.The New York Times reported them to be America's new "Third World" inside our own country. Within 20 years, at their current growth rate, they expect 20 million residents of those colonias. (I've seen them personally in Tex as and Arizona; it's sickening beyond anything you can imagine.) By enforcing our laws, we could repatriate them back to Mexico.

We should invite 20 million aliens to go home, fix their own countries and/or make a better life in Mexico. We already invite a million people into our country legally more than all other countries combined annually. We cannot and must not allow anarchy at our borders, more anarchy within our borders and growing lawlessness at every level in our nation. It's time to stand up for our country, our culture, our civilization and our way of life.

Interesting Statistics; Here are 14 reasons illegal aliens should vacate America, and I hope they are forwarded over and over again until they are read so many times that the reader gets sick of reading them:

1. $11 billion to $22 billion dollars are spent each year on welfare to illegal aliens. FAIR: : Immigration and Welfare

2. $2.2 billion dollars are spent each year on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens. Center for Immigration Studies

3. $2.5 bil lion d ollars are spent each year on Medicaid for illegal aliens. Center for Immigration Studies

4. $12 billion dollars are spent each year on primary and secondary school education for children here illegally and they cannot speak a word of English! CNN.com - Transcripts

5. $17 billion dollars are spent each year for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies.
CNN.com - Transcripts

6. $3 Million Dollars PER DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens. CNN.com - Transcripts

7. 30% percent of all federal prison inmates are illegal aliens.
CNN.com - Transcripts

8. $90 billion dollars are spent each year on illegal aliens for welfare & social services by the American taxpayers.
CNN.com - Transcripts

9. $200 billion dollars per year in suppressed American wages are caused by the illegal aliens.
CNN.com - Transcripts

10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's two and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US.
CNN.com - Transcripts

11. During the year 2005, there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our southern border with as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from terrorist countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroine, and marijuana crossed into the U.S. from the southern border.
http://tinyurl.com/t9sht

12. The National Policy Institute, estimates that the total cost of mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion, or an average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period.
National Policy Institute - Publications

13. In 2006, illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances back to their countries of origin. Wooldridge - How Much Further Into This Nightmare?

14. The dark side of illegal immigration: Nearly one million sex crimes are committed by illegal immigrants in the United States!"
http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml

The total cost is a whopping $338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR!!!

[renrich]

My friend, Enjoyed your post about illegals. Two points I would make that make me question some of the "facts" in the article you quoted. I have heard 11M and 20M illegals. Which is correct and how is the number quantified. Since 1998, our population has grown by 20M according to the census bureau. They say that half of that is immigration, legal and illegal. I suspect that the numbers thrown about on illegals may be inflated by some. It is absolute fiction that illegals don't pay taxes. Local government gets most of it's revenue from sales tax and most counties get their revenue from ad valorem real estate taxes. Illegals buy stuff just like legals and they live under roofs so they pay real estate taxes either directly or indirectly. In Texas and Florida, two states without state income tax and two states with big illegal populations, I don't see how illegals avoid paying the same state and local taxes that legals pay. As far as people working for decent wages, a lot of work in our country is being done by illegal and legal immigrants from south of the border for minimum wage. For instance, many ski resorts, who as you know, operate on a seasonal basis, bring in Latino and other workers with green cards to work in the lodging and food and beverage areas for minimum wage. When I worked for a ski resort, we had around 250 fulltime workers. At peak we had 1350 associates. The locals filled the high paying jobs but would not work in room cleaning for less than 25 dollars per hour. Of course, we could not operate our lodging services with those numbers so we brought in green cards that worked for minimum wage. Even though lodging rates at a ski resort are high, they would be much higher if only locals were employed. The immigration issue is a major issue in this country today and unfortunately it is a an emotional issue also. I personally am very sad that my home state is being taken over by spanish speaking people. Today it is not the same place that I grew up in. My ancestors fought at San Jacinto to free Texas from Mexico. San Antonio is the most fought over city in North America. Much of that combat took place after Texas was a republic, against Mexican invaders and Indians. I believe that every citizen in our country should be fluent in English. I don't believe that children born to illegals in the US should enjoy citizenship. Somehow, a rational discussion and debate about immigration must be had so that we can write an enforceable immigration law that secures our borders, protects the interests of US citizens, allows for a reasonable legal immigration policy and has a component where guest workers can come into the country for a limited period of time to do work that it is difficult if not impossible to have done by our citizens.

[Njaco]

I just posted for some thought. Not sure of its premise or facts as it is from an email. But as you say, a rational discusion should be had but its like finding the fountain of youth.