Zimbabwe's brutality is our business

[Danielmellbin]

Originally Posted by eddie_brunette

I have so much respect for the AID workers, but rather help the unfortunate ones in your country, you'll be killed here. Some headlines:

* At least 20 aid workers have been killed in Somalia this year
* Australian aid worker killed in Africa
* Aid workers being shot, killed
* Aid workers killed in Congo

but if you come down to Africa, please let me know, ill buy you a beer
edd

thanks mate - But I know the risks and it is not my first time out in a conflict zone (such a nice word for something that is undescribable). The "only" places I will not go near are Somalia and most of the middle east. Also - happily there are no unfortunates here.

[eddie_brunette]

Originally Posted by Danielmellbin

Also - happily there are no unfortunates here.

Wow how many countires can say that! About two years ago me and my fiance were on the brink of becoming Aid workers then we decided against it.

BTW love your signature and yes I am part of the 2%(proudly metalhead )

edd

[Haztoys]

I would think if we would all get off are back sides and help in are own countrys ..There would be know need for aid workers from out side any country..Unless some thing like earthquakes or other natural stuff..Why can't places like Africa take care of there own.. One reason the US is in the mess its in is trying to help those who will not help them selfs..

[Danielmellbin]

Originally Posted by eddie_brunette

Wow how many countires can say that! About two years ago me and my fiance were on the brink of becoming Aid workers then we decided against it.

BTW love your signature and yes I am part of the 2%(proudly metalhead )

edd

Yea. Its a tough job but very rewarding if doesn't wear you down.

Hehe - Stole it from an Aussie in here - well didn't steal it cuz it told me to add it really the qoute about our flag is my own though. It reminds of a story my dad told me. When he was working in Sarajevo during the war he also visited the danish units and they at first had nicknamed themselves as the "Viking" unit. However he quickly made 'em change it as he explained that the SS had had a similarily named unit there during parts of WW2.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Danielmellbin

SA: Not making any sense (or I don't see it). I know you cannot believe that the apartheid was good - so what is your point?

My point is they should of left them (White and black south Africans) alone. The international pressure was mounting against SA and ultimately the White majority government would have crumbled - there were many back in 1985 who warned about what is happening today.

Aparthied not only imprisioned the blacks, it did so to the whites too, I'm sure Eddie could comment on this.....

Originally Posted by Danielmellbin

Celebs: Again - why is it their obligation? - they are celebrities for the love of.. And they are not quiet - just not as loud mouthed as before. I Seem to remember the live aid concerts and other things not too long ago.

Glory seekers - they want to save the world when it suits them - now its more complicated so they remain quite

Originally Posted by Danielmellbin

African natives turning on their former colonial masters:
Hypocrasy? - yes and no. Stupid? - yes. Forseable and understandable? - yes.

No - is the white man in South Africa supposed to held accountable for what happened 200 years ago? I've learned in my time in the region there is actually "3" sides to the story....

Originally Posted by Danielmellbin

Mandela: Ok - I'm surprised that he hasn't. It would probably be good if he did. But I'm sure there are political issues that make it harder than it seems. And still - he is 90 years old and has done and accomplished so much in his life. Lets give him a break.

I'd give him a break if he came out and denounced the violence in Zimbabwe - all he has to do is hold one press conference and make a 25 second speech - seeing him at 90 he's more than capable of doing that.

[Danielmellbin]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

My point is they should of left them (White and black south Africans) alone. The international pressure was mounting against SA and ultimately the White majority government would have crumbled - there were many back in 1985 who warned about what is happening today.

Aparthied not only imprisioned the blacks, it did so to the whites too, I'm sure Eddie could comment on this.....

Glory seekers - they want to save the world when it suits them - now its more complicated so they remain quite

No - is the white man in South Africa supposed to held accountable for what happened 200 years ago? I've learned in my time in the region there is actually "3" sides to the story....

Why was international pressure mounting? Could it be because governments listen to their people and the people are often inspired by celebs?

What is the relevance of whites also being imprisoned during the Apartheid?

Again - its not their job. When they do help: great. When they dont: its not their job!!!

200 years ago?!? - im sure you mean 20 years ago. But still: no he shouldn't thats why I call it stupid. But if you treat a people as subhuman for centuries it is not surprising that they turn on the opressor once freed - however wrong it may be.

The last part is in no way directed at you Eddie - hope you know what I mean.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Danielmellbin

Why was international pressure mounting? Could it be because governments listen to their people and the people are often inspired by celebs?

Loooong before all the celebs came out South Africa as being isolated because of the Aparthied policy - there were international trade restrictions and sanctions aganist SA.

Originally Posted by Danielmellbin

What is the relevance of whites also being imprisoned during the Apartheid?

In areas there were days where whites were not allowed to go into black areas - for example, a local movie theater had "black" and "white" days.

Under aparthied whites were restricted into black areas as well - it was set up to racially divide the country into "homelands."

Originally Posted by Danielmellbin

Again - its not their job. When they do help: great. When they dont: its not their job!!!

You said it, it's not their job - especially when they venture into a cause they know little or nothing about.

Originally Posted by Danielmellbin

200 years ago?!? - im sure you mean 20 years ago. But still: no he shouldn't thats why I call it stupid. But if you treat a people as subhuman for centuries it is not surprising that they turn on the opressor once freed - however wrong it may be.

20 years ago? - 1989, the system was ending. By 1990 the negotations started and by 1993 aparthied ended. There was brutality on both sides - again there's 3 sides to the story and when you spend some time there you'll know what I mean. I found there were whites in SA that had a "Nazi" mentality and would kill any one who was non white at the drop of a hat. I also found those of both races willing to "put it right" and create an equal and united country and again I found blacks who harbored the same hatred of whites as my in my first example - some of these folks also had very leftist overtones.

Again I'd like to hear Eddie's or some of our other SA members's take on this....

[Danielmellbin]

Ok - we can drop the celebrity part of the debate. We just disagree there.

But on the question of white surpression in the days of white rule in SA - you cannot be serious. I now that there are good and bad people on every side in every conflict - thats pretty basic. But we are kidding ourselves if we start to believe that blacks and white had anything close to an equal share of burden and guilt in Africa.

But yea - lets hear it from Eddie.

PS. - yes 20 years: 2008 minus 20 = 1988

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Danielmellbin

But on the question of white surpression in the days of white rule in SA - you cannot be serious. I now that there are good and bad people on every side in every conflict - thats pretty basic. But we are kidding ourselves if we start to believe that blacks and white had anything close to an equal share of burden and guilt in Africa.

no agree there, but not to dwell on the celebs again, I think that just perpetuated the violence on both sides

Originally Posted by Danielmellbin

But yea - lets hear it from Eddie.

Or Henning or Henk

Originally Posted by Danielmellbin

PS. - yes 20 years: 2008 minus 20 = 1988

My badbut still the same timeframe.

[freebird]

What's your take FlyboyJ? Does the west need to intervene? Or just let that evil **** screw the country until he dies?

When is enough "diplomatic protest" and when is it time for some real help?

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by freebird

What's your take FlyboyJ? Does the west need to intervene? Or just let that evil **** screw the country until he dies?

When is enough "diplomatic protest" and when is it time for some real help?

I think the west should intervene with the OK coming from the UN only after the last bit of negotiation is used up (see below) - although we know that organization doesn't have the same clout or balls it did 45 years ago when it dealt with the Belgian Congo. I would also hope between SA, Botswana, Zambia and Mozambique they would do something about Mugabe - I believe it's just a matter of time before he starts to turn on his neighbors - I know there's been border clashes with Botswana in the past, and right now a "distraction" would be perfect for him in light of all his problems.

Mugabe may be realizing he's at his rope's end....


Mugabe, Tsvangirai sign Zimbabwe framework deal - Yahoo! News

[Danielmellbin]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

I think the west should intervene with the OK coming from the UN only after the last bit of negotiation is used up (see below) - although we know that organization doesn't have the same clout or balls it did 45 years ago when it dealt with the Belgian Congo. I would also hope between SA, Botswana, Zambia and Mozambique they would do something about Mugabe - I believe it's just a matter of time before he starts to turn on his neighbors - I know there's been border clashes with Botswana in the past, and right now a "distraction" would be perfect for him in light of all his problems.

Mugabe may be realizing he's at his rope's end....


Mugabe, Tsvangirai sign Zimbabwe framework deal - Yahoo! News

Agree - except I "suspect" that the UN will never do diddly squat.

[hunter0f2]

Hey Remember when it was British & called Rhodesia ???????????????

My father had a friend in the RRAF---Flying Vampires.

You have to remember that there are many Countries that hide behind a very thin veneer of civilisation.....Enough said!!

[eddie_brunette]

I realized last night that one of the biggest reasons of the turmoil here is the different cultures. There are 11 official languages in this place and for each language there is a culture eg. Zulu with own culture, Xhoza with own culture, Afrikaans with own culture, Indians with own culture etc. Then each of them (majority) have their own way of Christianity(other religions not included) It is amazing how each culture/political party says "It is God's will that we rule until Jesus return" (Just google it) Nobody respects/accepts each other cultures, but rather murder/chase away each other. The statement of 200 years ago is right, but add another 200. They’ve (cultures/groups) been raging war within each other for hundreds of years. Even in our so-called society Zulus murder Xhozas, who murder the Sothos who in return....etc. I condemn apartheid big time, because I and younger ones (like Henk) especially, suffers now because of a few politicians choices, BUT apartheid did create an infrastructure for all here, some just destroyed theirs.

It would be lovely if the west intervenes, and SA is part of the Commonwealth, but how they would be received here is another story.

BTW, I absolutely love the Finnish Culture 

Edd

Edit: I‘ll reply to the other posts soon, did not read it before I’ve posted this.

[Henk]

Well the thing during Apartheid is the Police did not go in and say lest shoot some blacks today. No, they were killing each other and burning down the schools given to them and causing mayhem in their communities. The Police always asked them to please go home, but they most of the time did not listen and caused a whole thing that forced the Police to fire on them. What would you do if there were thousands standing in front of you and they are hostile?

They did spend millions on the blacks with the homelands, but the blacks could not rule their own thing and it was thus a failure. They paid less tax, less at the hospitals, paid less at the doctor and most of them had work. Now that they must pay what the whites pay they do not like it and say it is not fair. I do not get all my power and water for free, the house I live in was not given to me and I do not sit on my arse the whole day and complain I work for my money and do not beg for money or demand money from the Government.

In my opinion I think the settlers should have left them alone so that do what they want and not force western culture and technology on them and cause the situation that we have now. They want to change the names of towns they did not even help to develop or turn into a success. WTF! Pretoria has nothing to do with them, they have their own towns with the names they chose and that was during the Apartheid era.

So was the Apartheid thing really so bad? No, but it was done incorrectly. Our cultures do not mix very well here in SA and I thought it might start to go somewhere after 1994 when they spoke of a "rainbow nation", but it soon turned into empty words. I think that if 80% of South African people could live together it would be a very well off country, but the thing between all the cultures in SA is causing trouble.