Best Air Force 1939-1941

[ctrian]

I fail to see how they show RAF operations in a poor light....

LW- 105 , RAF -118 .The defender despite all the advantages that come with it has higher losses than the attacking force .That’s definitely disappointing.As for outnumbered ,in what sense ? I was under the impression that fighters strengths were higher on the RAF side .

[ctrian]

I can see your version of history is fundamentally different to mine. I would dearly like to know your rasons why the germans abandoned their daylight offensive in 1940, why they all but suspended bomber operations in the latter half of 1941....

Operation Barbarossa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Tante Ju]

multi post

[Tante Ju]

Just to give one months figures on the bomber losses for the LW. according to German records, they lost 278 Bombers to all causes on the western front in April. The frontline strength of the LW at the end of March was slightly over 1800 bombers, so a loss rate of 278 aircraft represents 15.44% of the force pool. If that is not a force structure haemorraging itself to death I dont know what is....generally a loss rate abaove 3% per raid was considered unsustainable, and at that rate, the average monthly loss rate in the RAF was around 7.5% of the total force pool. Evidently 15% loss rates are unimportant to the Germans according to our esteemed friend.

It would be very heavy loss if it would be truth. It is not. Number already given 58 bomber destroyed against England during night, about 5 in day time in April 1941. Your numbers are fantasm category.

[Readie]

It would be very heavy loss if it would be truth. It is not. Number already given 58 bomber destroyed against England during night, about 5 in day time in April 1941. Your numbers are fantasm category.

There is a lot of stat's bending by the LW team.
Goering gave up simply because he had driven the LW to exhaustion.
And, to be fair, the RAF got a lucky break.
Cheers
John

[parsifal]

It would be very heavy loss if it would be truth. It is not. Number already given 58 bomber destroyed against England during night, about 5 in day time in April 1941. Your numbers are fantasm category.

We need to see your source material to verify that claim. In the meantime I have posted the loss sheets for the LW in April. these losses are based on the OKL Quartmaster loss return sheets, which have to be considered as the best primary source for the germans. I started at 7 April, and only needed to go to 10 April to exceed your claim of 58 bomber losses. The losses do include aircraft dmaged, but according to Foreman, an aircraft damaged much more than 35% would almost certainly be scrapped.

Anyway here are the bomber losses according to Foreman for the period of 7-10 April. as they exceed 58, and you have not posted your source material, I do not need to go any further than that to debunk your claim. as i said Foreman says he bases these lists on the OKL quatermasters loss reports. For these lists to be wrong, either Foreman is lying, he has not read the report s correctly, the OKL reports are wrong, or your claims are incorrect. guess which one I think is most likley.......

The summary sheets include the units and the serials so you should be able to verify the losses from your own source material.

[parsifal]

LW- 105 , RAF -118 .The defender despite all the advantages that come with it has higher losses than the attacking force .That’s definitely disappointing.As for outnumbered ,in what sense ? I was under the impression that fighters strengths were higher on the RAF side .

Not sure about your point here. I think you are saying that the LW lost 105 bombers and have assumed that the RAF lost 118 fighters in doing that. If so, you have misunderstood the location and nature of British losses. 1941 was different to 1940, because the RAF was beginning to undertake offensive operations in western Europe. At the same time, the LW was still committed to some daylight bomber operations and a major effort at nighht operations. The RAF did not lose 118 fighters shooting down those bombers, they lost the vast majority of their fighters, plus quite a few bombers, in attacking Germany directly (for the bombers) and Northern France. The majority of RAF fighter losses were sustained in offensive patrols against the LW fighter groups. The losses incflicted on the Germans bombers cost the British virtually no fighters.

If I have misunderstood you, please clarify

With regard to fighter strength, overall fighter strengths were roughly even, though the British had rebuilot their reserves, whilst the Germans had not. But in terms of forces committed to the battle over France, the British were definately outnumbered on almost every occasion. A typical circus for them might involve 3 or four squadrons, the biggest committment was 8 squadrons in a single operation. A total of 17 squadrons at one time or another were committed to this battle. The Germans committed over 38 squadrons, and typically would commit 6-10 squadrons to a single battle. They could only achieve this however, by not escorting their daylight raids over England, and not defending other parts of the Reich properly. In the longer term, their over-committment to these battles, cost them the campaign

[parsifal]

Operation Barbarossa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And your point is.......Britain did not abandon its offensive in the west because of its numerous and diverse worldwide committments, which for britain were at least as arduous as the LW committment to Barbarossa. Unlike the germasns they planned for, and made allowance in their planning for these committments. They did not allow obligations like the far east, the middle east, the meditteranean, North Africa, the North Atlantic, the fleet air arm, the western approaches, or any of the other myriad of worldwide responsibilities deter them from the task at had. They wanted to gain control of at least parts of the western ETO and theyachieved that by 1942. The Germans failoed to plan properly, under-estimated the threat, and ultimately lost.

As I said, poor organization and planning were the downfall of the LW, Not a weak industrial base, or the potential to build an air force of sufficient power to meet all their commitments

[Readie]

And your point is.......Britain did not abandon its offensive in the west because of its numerous and diverse worldwide committments, which for britain were at least as arduous as the LW committment to Barbarossa. Unlike the germasns they planned for, and made allowance in their planning for these committments. They did not allow obligations like the far east, the middle east, the meditteranean, North Africa, the North Atlantic, the fleet air arm, the western approaches, or any of the other myriad of worldwide responsibilities deter them from the task at had. They wanted to gain control of at least parts of the western ETO and theyachieved that by 1942. The Germans failoed to plan properly, under-estimated the threat, and ultimately lost.

As I said, poor organization and planning were the downfall of the LW, Not a weak industrial base, or the potential to build an air force of sufficient power to meet all their commitments

True enough, plus the added burden of the drunken fool Goering in charge of the LW.
I can almost feel for the aces like Galland and Molders. Great flyers and leaders for the LW
'Lions led by a donkey' springs to mind. ( with apologies to the WW1 origin of that phrase)
Cheers
John

[ctrian]

Britain could go on thanks to American charity ,the country was bankrupt by 1940 ,absolutely no comparison with Germany.As for the numerous and diverse worldwide commitments i mentioned their great performance against the channel geschwader.Or you could look at their ''successes'' in the Med...My point about losses is that the defending side has a huge advantage and it should be seen in the exchange ratio.Since this is almost 1-1 it's curious why the Brits couldn’t do better.

[Mustang nut]

For the poll I vote LW by a whisker. In 1939 there is little doubt, 1940 sort of even and in 1941 they wiped out most of the VVS they were up against but lost heavily in the process.

[Readie]

Britain could go on thanks to American charity ,the country was bankrupt by 1940 ,absolutely no comparison with Germany.As for the numerous and diverse worldwide commitments i mentioned their great performance against the channel geschwader.Or you could look at their ''successes'' in the Med...My point about losses is that the defending side has a huge advantage and it should be seen in the exchange ratio.Since this is almost 1-1 it's curious why the Brits couldn’t do better.

That first sentence is inflammatory.
A deal was done with our American friends and allies to help us and it took us a long time to repay the loan but, we did.
Wiki sums it up Lend-Lease - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Cheers
John

[ctrian]

That first sentence is inflammatory.
A deal was done with our American friends and allies to help us and it took us a long time to repay the loan but, we did.
Wiki sums it up Lend-Lease - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Cheers
John

Like you said it sums it up :

Following the fall of France, Great Britain became the only European nation actively engaged in war against Nazi Germany. Britain had been paying for its materiel in gold under "cash and carry", as required by the Neutrality Acts of the 1930s but by 1941 it had liquidated so many assets that it was running short of cash

Lend-Lease was a critical factor in the eventual success of the Allies in World War II.[N 1] In 1943–1944, about a quarter of all British munitions came through Lend-Lease. Aircraft (in particular transport aircraft) comprised about a quarter of the shipments to Britain, followed by food, land vehicles and ships

There was no charge for the Lend Lease aid delivered during the war

This program was a decisive step away from American non-interventionism since the end of World War I and towards international involvement. There was no debt; the U.S. did not charge for aid supplied under this legislation

[Readie]

Like you said it sums it up :

Following the fall of France, Great Britain became the only European nation actively engaged in war against Nazi Germany. Britain had been paying for its materiel in gold under "cash and carry", as required by the Neutrality Acts of the 1930s but by 1941 it had liquidated so many assets that it was running short of cash




Lend-Lease was a critical factor in the eventual success of the Allies in World War II.[N 1] In 1943–1944, about a quarter of all British munitions came through Lend-Lease. Aircraft (in particular transport aircraft) comprised about a quarter of the shipments to Britain, followed by food, land vehicles and ships

There was no charge for the Lend Lease aid delivered during the war

This program was a decisive step away from American non-interventionism since the end of World War I and towards international involvement. There was no debt; the U.S. did not charge for aid supplied under this legislation

No debt? you jest surely...

[Lighthunmust]

I hate to jump in with what may seem almost off-topic at this point in the Luftwaffe versus RAF debate, but I wanted to point out an often overlooked airforce that definately needs mentioning in this poll...

The Finnish Airforce - who gets my vote not because it had state-of-the-art world-class aircraft or a gruelling pilot training program that produced hundreds of cutting edge pilots, but because they scraped together castoff, often obsolete aircraft piloted by determined men and handed the Soviet Union it's a** against great odds...

That, in my book, is what makes them the best airforce of 1939 - 1941

Considering the appalling consequences of geography that placed the Finns between the two most dangerous countries in the world, their conduct was magnificent in preserving their nation. To have to strike a bargain with the Nazis to defend your nation from the Stalinists was an incredible dilemma. Then to be poorly equipped and outnumbered and still perform as well as the Finns is truly remarkable. I hope Trilisser from Finland will weigh in on the Finnish Airforce. Thanks for bringing up the subject GrauGeist.