Best Allied Nightfighter: P-61, Mosquito, or Hellcat? - Page 3 - Aircraft of World War II

renrich · 09-09-2007, 10:17 AM

The first deployment in combat of the F4U type by the US Navy in WW2 was aboard the Enterprise and they were F4U2s, a night fighter and armed with 4-20mm cannon. The F6F night fighter version was armed with 2-20mm cannon and 4-50 cal mgs, a formidable throw weight.

Glider · 09-09-2007, 02:21 PM

I admit I thought that the F4U2 had 4 x 0.5HMG's not 4 x 20mm. The number of guns being reduced to save weight.

renrich · 09-09-2007, 04:27 PM

Glider, I checked my references and you are mostly right as the F4U2 deleted one gun and had 5 50 cal mgs. The F4U1C had the 4-20mm cannon

Glider · 09-09-2007, 06:32 PM

Thanks for the info, I will update my records.
It sounds more like a space saving issue rather than weight. The Corsair isn't a lightweight and I find it hard to believe that the weight of one HMG would make a blind bit of difference to its performance or handling

renrich · 09-10-2007, 06:12 PM

Maybe a weight and balance issue. The F4U5N did have the aforementioned 4-20 mms and the only US Navy ace of the Korean war flew it. His name was Bordeleon and he was obviously from Louisiana.

renrich · 09-10-2007, 06:27 PM

Just finished a book about a SF A-team in Iraq and a fight against Iraqui T55s, APCs and assorted trucks where the US guys were outnumbered greatly. The SF guys had special Humvees with MaDeuces and the automatic 40mm grenade launchers. They were shooting up moving trucks at 800 yards with the M2s and killing ground troops in the open at over a thousnd yards with the M2s. I fired an M2 on the range at Fort Hood one time and am familiar with the ballistics of the 50 BMG round. When I see debates about the effectiveness of the 50 cals in WW2 against enemy AC I wonder whether we are not shortchanging the M2. Their were no aircraft in WW2 on any side any more robust than a deuce and a half and one 50 cal MG will tear up a deuce and a half with a few bursts. Imagine what happens to a WW2 AC if hit with say 100 rds of 50 BMGs at a range of 200 yards from 6-50s. Anyway, the M2 is a heavy hitter in combat on the ground.

SoD Stitch · 09-10-2007, 09:20 PM

Well, I was going to protest the fact that the P-38M wasn't included, but I did some homework first and found out that it did, indeed, participate in several late-War (very late-War!) missions, but never saw any combat. So it did do some flying around, but never engaged any enemy aircraft. Too bad; it would've been nice to find out how effective it was.

Erich · 09-10-2007, 09:40 PM

P-38M in what US night fighter units Sod ? In my data the P-38 in the standard day fighter fit was used , painted black then over to the Mossie/P-61, there was never a P-38 specialized nf ever used during the war.

4 P-61M's were sent to the 418th nfs in Jan./Feb. 1946 and then they were sent to the 421stnfs which flew a couple of sorties and then scrapped

kool kitty89 · 01-14-2008, 03:39 AM

I don't know about the P-38M, but I did hear that about the F7F. (flew a hand-full of noncombat recon opps as well as some unevenful nightfighter sorties in the last couple months of the war) Similar to the 2 YP-80As stationed in the MTO.

LaLongeCarabine · 03-04-2008, 07:36 AM

Wasn't there a night fighter of the P38?
I found this in a quick search.

Type: Single Seat Long Range Fighter
Origin: Lockheed
Models: XP-38 to P-38M, F-4 and F-5
First Flight: January 27 1939 (XP-3

Service Delivery: June 8, 1941 (USAAC)
Combat Debut: August 1942
Final Delivery: September 1945
Total Produced: 9,942

NIGHT FIGHTER (P-38M)

The P-38M, known as the "Night Fighter," was equipped with a state-of-the-art radar system, (an AN/APS-4 AI radar pod mounted under the nose on a modified bomb pylon) which was operated by a guy crammed in behind the pilot under the bubble canopy. Learn all about the Night Fighters here. To see a "Night Fighter" model, click here.

DROOP SNOOT

The P-38J (so-called "Droop Snoot"), was typically the lead plane on level bombing missions. The Droop Snoot was equipped with a Plexiglas nose and (replacing the more well-known P-38 fire power of machine guns and cannon) an ultra-secret Norden bomb sight. The bombardier was in the nose. The original color scheme was olive-drab-over-gray camouflage, and was most often associated with the 8th AF in Europe -- although they were also flown in the CBI theater. "American Eagles" covers many of the P-38 variances, including the Droop Snoot.

I don't know how they were used but they were made.

JLK

Erich · 03-04-2008, 07:37 PM

simple answer is : nope ! yes there are photos but it is after war when the pacific squads were doing ops over China. the standard P-38 without radar was used in darker day fighter camo

Burmese Bandit · 12-06-2008, 12:16 AM

Mosquito!!!

Cheap, deadly, fast, accurate, and reliable...what's not to like???

Messy1 · 12-09-2008, 01:47 PM

I went with the P-61. (Big surprise)

But am learning alot, interesting post.

koutsivtom · 04-07-2009, 04:58 PM

P - 61!!!!That plane was designed for night fighter from the beginning.Well equiped,powerfull with 2 super engines of its time,advanced enginnering,with the first actually air radar!It was like a cadillac of the air.Far from its time,clearly......But unfortunatelly its value couldn't be clear because when it was appeared there wasn't any enemy......

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 04-07-2009, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by koutsivtom

P - 61!!!!That plane was designed for night fighter from the beginning.Well equiped,powerfull with 2 super engines of its time,advanced enginnering,with the first actually air radar!It was like a cadillac of the air.Far from its time,clearly......But unfortunatelly its value couldn't be clear because when it was appeared there wasn't any enemy......

The P-61 was not the first aircraft to use radar. It was the first US aircraft purposely built to use radar.

Plenty of aircraft used radar before the P-61 was built, including the:

Mossie
Ju 88
Bf 110

View Poll Results: Best Allied Nightfighter?
Northrop P-61B Black Widow	13	30.95%
DeHavilland Mosquito NF-XIII	25	59.52%
Grumman F6F-5N Hellcat	4	9.52%
Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

09-10-2007, 09:40 PM	#38
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 10,775	P-38M in what US night fighter units Sod ? In my data the P-38 in the standard day fighter fit was used , painted black then over to the Mossie/P-61, there was never a P-38 specialized nf ever used during the war. 4 P-61M's were sent to the 418th nfs in Jan./Feb. 1946 and then they were sent to the 421stnfs which flew a couple of sorties and then scrapped __________________ Rip it up ! Last edited by Erich; 09-10-2007 at 10:18 PM.

03-04-2008, 07:37 PM	#41
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 10,775	simple answer is : nope ! yes there are photos but it is after war when the pacific squads were doing ops over China. the standard P-38 without radar was used in darker day fighter camo __________________ Rip it up !

12-09-2008, 01:47 PM	#43
Messy1 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Ankeny, Iowa Posts: 1,411	I went with the P-61. (Big surprise) But am learning alot, interesting post. __________________ Bryon O P-61 Black Widow-Mistress of the Night! "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." George S. Patton "Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government." "Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away."

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09-09-2007, 10:17 AM	#31
renrich Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Montrose, Colorado Posts: 3,271	The first deployment in combat of the F4U type by the US Navy in WW2 was aboard the Enterprise and they were F4U2s, a night fighter and armed with 4-20mm cannon. The F6F night fighter version was armed with 2-20mm cannon and 4-50 cal mgs, a formidable throw weight.

09-09-2007, 02:21 PM	#32
Glider Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: London Posts: 3,655	I admit I thought that the F4U2 had 4 x 0.5HMG's not 4 x 20mm. The number of guns being reduced to save weight.

09-09-2007, 04:27 PM	#33
renrich Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Montrose, Colorado Posts: 3,271	Glider, I checked my references and you are mostly right as the F4U2 deleted one gun and had 5 50 cal mgs. The F4U1C had the 4-20mm cannon

09-09-2007, 06:32 PM	#34
Glider Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: London Posts: 3,655	Thanks for the info, I will update my records. It sounds more like a space saving issue rather than weight. The Corsair isn't a lightweight and I find it hard to believe that the weight of one HMG would make a blind bit of difference to its performance or handling

09-10-2007, 06:12 PM	#35
renrich Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Montrose, Colorado Posts: 3,271	Maybe a weight and balance issue. The F4U5N did have the aforementioned 4-20 mms and the only US Navy ace of the Korean war flew it. His name was Bordeleon and he was obviously from Louisiana.

09-10-2007, 06:27 PM	#36
renrich Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Montrose, Colorado Posts: 3,271	Just finished a book about a SF A-team in Iraq and a fight against Iraqui T55s, APCs and assorted trucks where the US guys were outnumbered greatly. The SF guys had special Humvees with MaDeuces and the automatic 40mm grenade launchers. They were shooting up moving trucks at 800 yards with the M2s and killing ground troops in the open at over a thousnd yards with the M2s. I fired an M2 on the range at Fort Hood one time and am familiar with the ballistics of the 50 BMG round. When I see debates about the effectiveness of the 50 cals in WW2 against enemy AC I wonder whether we are not shortchanging the M2. Their were no aircraft in WW2 on any side any more robust than a deuce and a half and one 50 cal MG will tear up a deuce and a half with a few bursts. Imagine what happens to a WW2 AC if hit with say 100 rds of 50 BMGs at a range of 200 yards from 6-50s. Anyway, the M2 is a heavy hitter in combat on the ground.

09-10-2007, 09:20 PM	#37
SoD Stitch Banned Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Pine Mountain Lake, California Posts: 981	Well, I was going to protest the fact that the P-38M wasn't included, but I did some homework first and found out that it did, indeed, participate in several late-War (very late-War!) missions, but never saw any combat. So it did do some flying around, but never engaged any enemy aircraft. Too bad; it would've been nice to find out how effective it was.

01-14-2008, 03:39 AM	#39
kool kitty89 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,412	I don't know about the P-38M, but I did hear that about the F7F. (flew a hand-full of noncombat recon opps as well as some unevenful nightfighter sorties in the last couple months of the war) Similar to the 2 YP-80As stationed in the MTO.

03-04-2008, 07:36 AM	#40
LaLongeCarabine Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1	Wasn't there a night fighter of the P38? I found this in a quick search. Type: Single Seat Long Range Fighter Origin: Lockheed Models: XP-38 to P-38M, F-4 and F-5 First Flight: January 27 1939 (XP-3 Service Delivery: June 8, 1941 (USAAC) Combat Debut: August 1942 Final Delivery: September 1945 Total Produced: 9,942 NIGHT FIGHTER (P-38M) The P-38M, known as the "Night Fighter," was equipped with a state-of-the-art radar system, (an AN/APS-4 AI radar pod mounted under the nose on a modified bomb pylon) which was operated by a guy crammed in behind the pilot under the bubble canopy. Learn all about the Night Fighters here. To see a "Night Fighter" model, click here. DROOP SNOOT The P-38J (so-called "Droop Snoot"), was typically the lead plane on level bombing missions. The Droop Snoot was equipped with a Plexiglas nose and (replacing the more well-known P-38 fire power of machine guns and cannon) an ultra-secret Norden bomb sight. The bombardier was in the nose. The original color scheme was olive-drab-over-gray camouflage, and was most often associated with the 8th AF in Europe -- although they were also flown in the CBI theater. "American Eagles" covers many of the P-38 variances, including the Droop Snoot. I don't know how they were used but they were made. JLK

12-06-2008, 12:16 AM	#42
Burmese Bandit Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 475	Mosquito!!! Cheap, deadly, fast, accurate, and reliable...what's not to like???

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04-07-2009, 04:58 PM	#44
koutsivtom Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Thessaloniki Greece Posts: 4	P - 61!!!!That plane was designed for night fighter from the beginning.Well equiped,powerfull with 2 super engines of its time,advanced enginnering,with the first actually air radar!It was like a cadillac of the air.Far from its time,clearly......But unfortunatelly its value couldn't be clear because when it was appeared there wasn't any enemy......