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The Best Anti-Tank Aircraft of World War 2....

Polls Discuss The Best Anti-Tank Aircraft of World War 2.... in the World War II - Aviation forums; And the B-25 has what to do with Tank Killing??? Nothing...... Stay on topic.........


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View Poll Results: Best Anti-Tank Aircraft in World War 2...
Ju 87G-2 (Cannon) 22 18.64%
Hs 129B-2 (Cannon) 15 12.71%
Fw 190F-8 (Panzerblitz 2) 7 5.93%
Me 262A-1a (Panzerblitz 2) 2 1.69%
IL-2M (Cannon) 25 21.19%
Hawker Hurricane Mk IID (Cannon) 8 6.78%
Hawker Typhoon (Rockets) 18 15.25%
Republic P-47D (Rockets) 21 17.80%
Voters: 118. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-09-2008, 03:11 PM   #31
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And the B-25 has what to do with Tank Killing???

Nothing......

Stay on topic......
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Old 03-10-2008, 05:13 PM   #32
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Bill Hello:

Sorry...for one moment i kind of forgot about this thread.

Thanks again for providing further detail on Rudel´s units meeting with USAAF fighters. Very interesting.

Now your question: as best i´d definitely pick the Stuka. When either air force enjoyed nearly complete air superiority the Stuka proved its full worth as perhaps the ultimate aerial method of destruction, and no other plane deployed in the tank-killing role came close to match the record of the Stukas.

With this i´d be referring to the Ju 87 D; even if the G-1 fitted with the 37mm cannons too proved successful tank killers.

Many people have said to me "but it was a very difficult thing to hit a moving tank with the bombs the Stuka was to launch during the dive". Perhaps. But who says it was necessary to put the bomb through the turret hatch of a tank to either destroy it or to a least knock it out, or to at minimum put the tank crew out of commission?

See some shocking evidence (already posted on another thread i opened):

YouTube - Die Deutsche Wochenschau 1941-12-05 Stukas über Nordafrika

Again i´d referr to the "Operation Cobra" launched by the USAAF to hit the elements of the Panzer Lehr around St. Lo during 1944. It took them nearly 2 days to finally hit the German units, not before killing, vaporizing and wounding a large number of their own soldiers. This operation involved more than 350 B-17s flying in an environment of nearly complete air superiority...and they simply could not find the mark, and when they finally managed to hit the Germans, losses of equipment due to the carpet bombing were not as disastrous as allied literature enjoys portraying. Yes, there was an allied break-through after the carpet-bombing, but a significant number of Panzer Lehr tanks and vehicles were still in service. Furthermore, from reports of some Panzer Lehr commanders it was clearly stated very few tanks were destroyed by the bombs of B-17s.


And do not forget that for this operation, there were also USAAF fighters involved attacking ground targets...that given the nature of the target (Panzer Lehr) a significant number tanks and other AFVs were around.

Had such a task been assigned to Stukas, and with air superiority similar or identical to that enjoyed by the allies over Normandy, it would have taken them Stukas half a morning to exterminate the enemy target, with way less resources invested. How do i substantiate this assertion? Very simple: consider the advance of the US/British armies through Normandy in mid 1944. Again and again, they enjoyed nearly complete air superiority and they had a seriously nasty time in gaining extra yards through their sector. How come? See the same case now for Germany: the advance of the Wehrmacht was utterly crushing and overwhelming even in weeks where the enemy air force was not yet annihilated (First months of Barbarossa in the USSR, or Poland, or France, or the Balkans, even in North Africa during the first months of Rommel). Hence the evidence the Stuka did not require anything like "complete air superiority" to successfully and brutally fulfill assigned missions.


Had the U.S. developed a plane similar to the Stuka, i can think of them having a more convincing and sound advance through Normandy during 1944.



So all in all, the Stuka is the best.

I have German guncamera footage of Fw190s and Bf 109s dealing with RAF fighters Tempests/Typhoon fitted with those aluminium rails under the wings for installing rockets...they seemed easy victims as well and exploded in huge fireballs.

None of the Allied planes deployed in the ground attack mode destroyed as many enemy tanks as the Stukas did; reading Niklas Zetterling´s works on the matter can be of great help to understand how overrated the P-47s, Typhoon and Tempests are when referring to anti-tank missions.

Huge delays caused to German armored units marching to the front were the main effects ever attained by those allied planes trying to hit German columns.


On another approach -off topic-, having read and studied a good deal on the Normandy campaign, Opeation Cobra being the issue here, helped me training my views Germany could have fared a far more wiser and more efficient aerial war against the 8th and 15th AFs.

The fact a formation of more than 300 B-17s was sent on combat mission to an area clearly identified and detected where enemy elements were blocking the allied advance (St. Lo sector), flying in skies that to a great extent were secure, meaning their side enjoyed nearly complete air superiority, and they could not find the mark, and when they finally did, other than severe disruption and negative impact on morale the Panzer Lehr was not put out of action speaks of the great inaccuracy in USAAF bombing methods.

(Even when fighting in the horror of Stalingrad, where positions held by soviet soldiers in many cases were no more than 50 meters away from German infantry units, when the Stukas were called and vectored to hit the target, there is no single report indicating the Stukas ever hit their own men, flying in a far more complicated battle environment; yup, given the distances and dimensions of that urban fight German troops too had to duck when the Stukas dived, but i have not come across one single report indicating Stuka bombs ever hit Wehrmacht elements even within a bloody city).

Instead of devoting the bulk of the Luftwaffe to Reichsverteidigung, a considerably larger number of German fighters could have been alloted to effectively support German ground forces in the west.

Fighting with almost zero air-support the German soldiers proved their excellence and preparedness on the battlefield. Think of a scenario where they can enjoy aerial cover.
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Last edited by Udet : 03-10-2008 at 06:41 PM.
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Old 03-10-2008, 07:56 PM   #33
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You make good points Adrian. At the end of the day it largely depends on air superiority and the mission a tank killer had to perform (and when - in the timestream of the war)

And you will get no argument from me to consider the B-17 in this role - lol.

Regards,

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Old 03-10-2008, 08:13 PM   #34
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Very good post Udet.
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We have built a total of about 1250 of this aircraft (Me-262), but only fifty were allowed to be used as fighters - as interceptors. And out of this fifty, there were never more than 25 operational. So we had only a very, very few.
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Old 03-11-2008, 07:57 PM   #35
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Bill and Soren and Dan:

Why would you think the RAF/USAAF failed so miserably when performing the ground support role in Normandy?

The fact they had to call B-17s to deal with enemy armored units should be regarded as sufficient argument to counter the allied tales of P-47s, Typhoons and Tempests "wiping out" entire German armored columns.

My idea is that if the fighter-bombers of both RAF/USAAF had indeed been successfully performing their ground attack missions the bizarre idea of calling B-17s would have never been considered.

Niklas Zetterling´s works not only came to shatter this generally accepted allied versions....he also pointed to the fact losses of planes and pilots endured by both RAF and USAAF during those missions were way higher than losses inflicted on Panzer units.

I will understand the notion of different doctrines, but how come a military power such as the USA failed to acknowledge and recognize the brutal effectiveness of the Wehrmacht/Luftwaffe symbiosis when on the offensive?
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Old 03-11-2008, 08:54 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Udet View Post
Bill and Soren and Dan:

Why would you think the RAF/USAAF failed so miserably when performing the ground support role in Normandy?

The fact they had to call B-17s to deal with enemy armored units should be regarded as sufficient argument to counter the allied tales of P-47s, Typhoons and Tempests "wiping out" entire German armored columns.

My idea is that if the fighter-bombers of both RAF/USAAF had indeed been successfully performing their ground attack missions the bizarre idea of calling B-17s would have never been considered.

Adrian - I need top be careful in how I position this argument. First, I am not sure what the criteria was/is for 'success' of the RAF/USAAF or even LW role in ground support.

I am pretty sure the Brits and Americans did not view the Fighter Groups as 'an artilliary barrage' but rather 'point or interdicting fire'. I rather think the Luftwaffe had the same view for the Ju 87 - namely an accurate and deadly system to destroy hard points and armor beyond the range of artilliary fire.

I am happy to be wrong.

But for the sake of argument, I would never believe squadrons of P-47s could pulverize a several square mile area and blugeon trrops (and armor) into submission. Theri highest and best use for me would be in the 'interdicting' role and full time hrassment of supply lines including light armor and trucks, plus the odd Tiger.

If we wish to take this to the extreme, only one US weapon system was Ever designed (effectvely) to destroy armor efficiently - the A-10 'Hog'


Niklas Zetterling´s works not only came to shatter this generally accepted allied versions....he also pointed to the fact losses of planes and pilots endured by both RAF and USAAF during those missions were way higher than losses inflicted on Panzer units.

Adrian - I am looking around to see if anyone in this dialogue is in disagreement - so far, No... lol.

I believe the Jabos true effectiveness was the harrassment of infantry and road and rail traffic - limiting manuever options for the Wermacht. If you have to wait for dark to manuever you have lost a lot of offensive capability. If you HAVE to move in daylight in columns or en masse - you are at great risk in these environments.

You aren't arguing with a passionate defender of the notion that Tempests, Jugs and Typhoons were Tiger Killers.. but I AM a great believer in their role as interdictors and punishers of ground troops. There was a serious reason that the Battle of the Bulge was initiated and fought for 9 days in terrible weather.


I will understand the notion of different doctrines, but how come a military power such as the USA failed to acknowledge and recognize the brutal effectiveness of the Wehrmacht/Luftwaffe symbiosis when on the offensive?
I don't think they underestimatedthe symbiosis. I do believe they cut out the effectiveness of the Ju 87 in that equation however... at least in the West from 1944 forward.

It might be an interesting thread to see what the worst days were for Ju 87 units... but June 6 with 355th FG at Normandy and Frantic III (July 25th?)with 31st FG in Romania are two possibilites. In both cases the units were severely punished and totally in effective.

I am not aware of another significant excursion of Ju 87s in the West after those two disasters..

Given a choice - I'll take the A-10.. BTW I get to fly the simulator at Davis Monthan AFB when we have the 355th FGA there in April. I am so looking forward to it.
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Old 03-11-2008, 10:39 PM   #37
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Udet,

Here's something interesting about the American use of B-17's for bombing:


Interview with German FallschirmJäger veteran Heinz Puschmann who served at Cassino, Normandy and again in Italy:

"How did you view the Americans compared to the British?

Different; a different style altogether.

In what respect?

Because when the British fought, the same as the New Zealanders – they’d fight even if they didn’t have air support. The Americans – if they didn’t have air support, they wouldn’t go. That was the same at Casino. When I was talking to that New Zealand captain we were saying that when the British planes came over, we ran for cover. When the German planes came over, the British ran for cover but when the American planes came over, everyone ran for cover!! Two thirds up the hill at Casino were Ghurkhas & the Ghurkhas were nearly wiped out by the bombing. They missed Clark’s (?) headquarters, they bombed so far back. When the British bombers came, they hit their target. It was different altogether.
"
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Old 03-11-2008, 11:21 PM   #38
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Udet,

Here's something interesting about the American use of B-17's for bombing:


Interview with German FallschirmJäger veteran Heinz Puschmann who served at Cassino, Normandy and again in Italy:

"How did you view the Americans compared to the British?

Different; a different style altogether.

In what respect?

Because when the British fought, the same as the New Zealanders – they’d fight even if they didn’t have air support. The Americans – if they didn’t have air support, they wouldn’t go. That was the same at Casino. When I was talking to that New Zealand captain we were saying that when the British planes came over, we ran for cover. When the German planes came over, the British ran for cover but when the American planes came over, everyone ran for cover!! Two thirds up the hill at Casino were Ghurkhas & the Ghurkhas were nearly wiped out by the bombing. They missed Clark’s (?) headquarters, they bombed so far back. When the British bombers came, they hit their target. It was different altogether.
"
Well, there is an objective statement.

I always knew American soldiers were gutless wonders Soren but it takes a pure bozo to make a blanket statement like that!.

Ask the same Prussian Gentleman if he was around Monte Defensa when the 1st Special Service Force kicked hell out of a couple of German battalions off the hill after scaling the 'unscalable' cliff.

How about Mussolini Canal when those same troops plus 2nd Battalion of 504PIR stopped the Germans dead in their tracks at Anzio every time they tried to break through.

What about St.Vith and Bastogne and Stavelot in the Bulge when there was zero air cover.

Why do you have to bring this kind of crap into this forum?

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Old 03-12-2008, 08:36 AM   #39
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Wow! Easy there! I'm not the guy who said this, a veteran FallschirmJäger did out of his experience fighting the Americans at Casino. Also he never called the Americans gutless, he just said they wouldn't go unless they had air-support, something which isn't surprising considering who was holding the castle. (The green devils)

The American soldiers didn't demand air support to go anywhere, there are plenty of examples of that, and the Americans displayed just as much courage as all the others.

Now cool down Bill, it wasn't meant as a blow against the Americans, just an addition to what Udet said about the inaccuracy of US bombing.
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Old 03-27-2008, 10:11 PM   #40
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To know which aircraft is the best tank killer, you would first have to know which anti tank weapon system is the best.

According to William/Gustin's book "Flying Guns" anti tank guns like the MK 103 with Hartkern ammunition had the highest succes rate. Armour piercing was almost as good as the modern GAU-8 carried by the A10.

Special anti tank bombs as the Soviet PTAB with hollow charge were, according to the Soviets, the best way to take out medium tanks.

Rockets used by Typhoons and P47's seemed to have been less succesful against heavy armour. According to British reports out of a 223 Panthers destroyed in 1944 only 11 were taken out with rockets. The tactical fighters on the western front seem to have been more succesful taking out support vehicles and hampering enemy supply lines. Furthermore most air to ground rockets had a hit probability of less than 10 percent (including British RP and German panzerblitz and panzerschreck).

If a big gun (30 or 40mm) would be the best, you need a stable gun platform. Take for instance a Hurricane IID with two 40 mm Vickers class S versus the Henschel HS 129 with one MK 101 or Mk 103. The first has a hit ratio of about 26 percent, the second a hit ratio of about 60 percent. The Henschel was a very stable gun platform because of its twin engine configuration. The Ju 87G was also quite stable because of its rigid thick wings.
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Last edited by Fokker D21 : 03-29-2008 at 09:42 PM. Reason: I meant 87 G, not 88
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Old 03-27-2008, 10:26 PM   #41
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Some forum members claim that a good anti tank plane should also include a reasonable chance of survival against other fighters. However a special purpose anti tank plane or even a fighter in the anti tank role will most likely always be at a disadvantage against a pure fighter.

Besides the biggest treat is anti aircraft fire and not enemy fighters for a ground attack fighter. Therefore good armour and redundant (reserve) systems are more important.

A twin engine airplane would be my favorite. I choose the Henschel 129. The only drawback it had were the not entirely reliable engines.
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Old 03-29-2008, 11:05 AM   #42
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To know which aircraft is the best tank killer, you would first have to know which anti tank weapon system is the best.

According to William/Gustin's book "Flying Guns" anti tank guns like the MK 103 with Hartkern ammunition had the highest succes rate. Armour piercing was almost as good as the modern GAU-8 carried by the A10.

Out of curiosity, what are the comparisons between Hartkern ammo and the inert plutonium AP round for the A-10?

If a big gun (30 or 40mm) would be the best, you need a stable gun platform. Take for instance a Hurricane IID with two 40 mm Vickers class S versus the Henschel HS 129 with one MK 101 or Mk 103. The first has a hit ratio of about 26 percent, the second a hit ratio of about 60 percent. The Henschel was a very stable gun platform because of its twin engine configuration. The Ju 88G was also quite stable because of its rigid thick wings.
Why would a 'rigid, thick wing' have anything to do with stick fixed and/or stick free Neutral points with respect to Cg?

A 'rigid' wing would be of some benefit to reduce elastic deformation of the outer wing in high g mauever, and perhaps an 'early stall' but why else would it benefit stability as a gun platform?
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Old 03-29-2008, 09:11 PM   #43
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It has not so much to do with CG, but with heavy vibrations and recoil of such large cannons like the BK 37 which can have a great impact on the wings. The Ju 87 G with its stronger wings and heavier weight would be better suited for large guns than a smaller Hurricane.

Mounting the gun in the fuselage (or below) would however be a better choice. No harmonisation, a higher effective range and a more rigid mounting possible.

I made an error in my previous post, I meant the Ju 87, not the 88. My deepest apologies.
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Old 04-04-2008, 01:43 PM   #44
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Like the Stuks mtself, just a workhorse and a great anti Armour platform from start to finish, it did pave the way for Blitz warfare so I amoung many other good ones give it my vote.

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Old 04-22-2008, 06:00 PM   #45
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Im going to have to go with the P-47 thunderbolt, had a good airframe and could pack a punch
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