The Best Assault Rifle.

[lesofprimus]

Originally Posted by Soren

Try shooting a K98k with full power milsurp ammo, the Garand's recoil feels like a soft pad to the shoulder by comparison.

This I can confirm...

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Matt308

[cough] M-14 [cough]

Grin.

While I a.) do NOT have an AK of any variety and cannot speak first hand regarding anything but rep, I have 4 'battle rifles' for lack of a better description (plus a variety of rifles actioned on Springfield, Mauser 98, M700 and pre-64 when the discussion gets to recoil)

I do have an M1, and M1A1 (civilized M-14), AR10 and AR15. If something 'dreadful' happened and I could only pick one I think I would reach for the AR10 (civilized AR18 w/improvements). I don't have a scope on by preference but be persuaded depending on what was required

With factory 150/Mil 147 it is more accurate than any of my other accurate semi's except the .556 round for the AR15... still less than MOA all day long w/factory Hornady 150's... and its a lot lighter than the Garand/son of Garand. It shoots 165s very well and starts to taper off in accuracy with 200's (twist too slow with 1:10)

The close second is the M1A1 -also very accurate but at my age I want a gun bearer to carry it and the ammo until I need it.

Next would be the AR15.

I suspect I would be tempted for full auto and get in the 'assault rifle' biz but believe semi auto just fine for me.

Soren - On the '98 vs the '03 as for recoil - look closely to the bullet. The 198gr issue for the 98 probably does not kick more than a 200 gr 30-06 and as I recall the first round issued to the 03 was a 220gr load in the 30-03 then the 30-06 before WWI.

If the comparison on 98 kick vs 03 in WWII then by MV and respective bullet weights for that time I could be argued for the 98 as sharper thumper - but couldn't be a significant difference.

Picking from Poll I would have to ask what am I supposed to be doing? If I'm spotting for a sniper and back up, then M-14. If it's Close Quarter downtown as the daily grind I suspect I would pick the AK from rep but likely to choose the M-16A4 by familiarity.

I would also pick the M-16 for all around with the 62gr (1:9 twist) round as round of choice for All around as long as I could reasonably keep it clean - I've never been in places like Iraq so have no idea how it's doin there in the high dust/sand environment

For critters and scenarios likely in Texas or Oregon - AR10 for sure. Fully auto ? AR10 for me.

[possumburger@hotmail.co.u]

someone give me a good reason other than its reliability (which they've improved) why the l85a2 isn't the best!?.....plus wouldn't the m14 be better than the ak47 except maybe reliability and simplicity

[lesofprimus]

plus wouldn't the m14 be better than the ak47 except maybe reliability and simplicity

Nope...

[Soren]

Drgondog,

Part of the reason the K98k gives a bigger kick is the heavier bullet, no doubt, but the extra drive force the Mauser cartridge can give heavier bullets is also part of the reason. Even with 200 - 220 gr bullets the 30-06 doesn't give the kick of the 198gr sS bullet in the K98k. (Don't confuse cartridge size with available drive force!)

I'm not saying the difference is huge, but its there - and even more so when we're comparing the K98k with the Garand. (The cycling mechanism taking away abit of the recoil)

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by possumburger@hotmail.co.u

someone give me a good reason other than its reliability (which they've improved) why the l85a2 isn't the best!?.....

You have got to be kidding right?

Having served in the military and regularly fired M-16/M-4, AK-47s and done quite a bit of training with the Brit guns including the SA80/L85 and I can tell you the L85/SA80 is the last of the 3 in that group that I would want.

The Brits that we trained with even said they dont like it...

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Soren

Drgondog,

Part of the reason the K98k gives a bigger kick is the heavier bullet, no doubt, but the extra drive force the Mauser cartridge can give heavier bullets is also part of the reason. Even with 200 - 220 gr bullets the 30-06 doesn't give the kick of the 198gr sS bullet in the K98k. (Don't confuse cartridge size with available drive force!)

I'm not saying the difference is huge, but its there - and even more so when we're comparing the K98k with the Garand. (The cycling mechanism taking away abit of the recoil)

Say what? "Drive Force" ?? - are you referring to some form of integrated impulse curve difference leading to larger 'felt' recoil between the 8x57JS and the 30-06? Otherwise F=1/2 MV>2

The commercial loading for the 150 gr 8x57JS is 2800 fps,100fps lower than the 150 gr 30-06. The military ball round for a M-1 was lower capacity and pressure resulting in 2700fps.

So, if you compare a M98 actioned rifle with commercial 150 gr bullet in 8x57JS to the same rifle re-barreled, same weight and length, to 30-06 in commercial 150 gr - then the 30-06 will kick harder. Change the cartridge to Mil Ball issue for M-1 and the 8mm will kick harder.

Step up to 200gr for 30-06 and compare to many (RW and Norma) standard commercial for 8mm - the 8mm has about 50fps higher velocity ---> more recoil force. Compare against military issue 198gr for M98 ? not sure. The 'std' 200 gr 30-06 is 2592fps.

I have been re-loading and wildcatting for 40+ years including 8mm, and 8mm-06. It is a nice cartridge and nearly the equal of the 30-06 in commercial loads in all bullet weights under 180 and superior from 196 and up, and slightly better wrt military cartridge for K98 vs M-1 at 150gr because a.) military brass of 30-06 less capacity than commercial brass and can't be loaded to same pressures, and b.) uses less powder for same reason.

Using a standard 30-06 round off the shelf in 1939 (or today) would not be good long term in a Garand. A M98 action is stronger than an -03 but doesn't matter under 60Kpsi.

If you re-load using Winchester brass (pretty much the most capacity of any mfr) - same primers and equivalent bullet weights and types - each to approximately 55K psi CUP - the 30-06 will be faster in every case that I have seen to date as well as my own experience up to 190gr, particularly with RL22.

Beyond that I can load a 8mmx57JS faster and stay within safe pressures

So, if not 1/2 MV>2 what is 'drive force'? It really is a new term for me.

The only thing I can think of is the benefit derived by having a larger bore derived from same case with a larger bullet. My 338-06 will drive a 225g Nosler Accubond at 2600 fps w/61.0 gr H414 which is more than a 200gr bullet in an 8x57JS. Same case as 30-06 necked up

Regards,

Bill

[Soren]

Bill, you're using American commercial ammunition thats why. American 8x57mm loads are grossly underloaded, go buy some fullpower European ammunition.

Go to reloadersnest.com, they've got some good handloads you can try.

In strong actions the 8x57mm IS can be safely loaded up to 58 - 60,000 psi MAP, the same or slightly more than the 30.06.

A 154gr bullet in the 7.92x57mm IS will be driven up to 3,000 + fps, and 200gr bullets will do up to 2,700+ fps.

Here's some hot loads you can try (All 56,000 psi MAP or less):
Real Guns - Handload Data - 8x57mm JS Mauser

The Germans themselves back in WWII used uploaded types of 7.92x57mm ammunition, mostly for use in aircraft guns, although snipers "Borrowed" them for an extra 150m of effective range. These rounds were designated "V-patronen", the V stood for Improved and drove the std. 12.8g (198gr) sS projectile to 868 m/s (2850 fps).

154gr 7.92x57mm Turkish Surplus ammunition does around 2,950 fps on average in the Gewehr 98.

As to what I meant with drive force, well thats the amount of force the cartridge can get out of a bullet at different weights - the 8x57mm cartridge has a larger surface area to push on, leading to better acceleration with different bullet weights. The higher the bullet density the lower the acceleration & decceleration and vice versa.

PS: Drive force isn't a general term in the gun world, hence why you haven't heard it before.

[lesofprimus]

Making new terminology are we Soren lol???

[Soren]

Yup

No, its a word often used by physicists in other contexts.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Soren

Bill, you're using American commercial ammunition thats why. American 8x57mm loads are grossly underloaded, go buy some fullpower European ammunition.

Go to reloadersnest.com, they've got some good handloads you can try.

In strong actions the 8x57mm IS can be safely loaded up to 58 - 60,000 psi MAP, the same or slightly more than the 30.06.

A 154gr bullet in the 7.92x57mm IS will be driven up to 3,000 + fps, and 200gr bullets will do up to 2,700+ fps.

Here's some hot loads you can try (All 56,000 psi MAP or less):
Real Guns - Handload Data - 8x57mm JS Mauser

The Germans themselves back in WWII used uploaded types of 7.92x57mm ammunition, mostly for use in aircraft guns, although snipers "Borrowed" them for an extra 150m of effective range. These rounds were designated "V-patronen", the V stood for Improved and drove the std. 12.8g (198gr) sS projectile to 868 m/s (2850 fps).

154gr 7.92x57mm Turkish Surplus ammunition does around 2,950 fps on average in the Gewehr 98.

As to what I meant with drive force, well thats the amount of force the cartridge can get out of a bullet at different weights - the 8x57mm cartridge has a larger surface area to push on, leading to better acceleration with different bullet weights. The higher the bullet density the lower the acceleration & decceleration and vice versa.

PS: Drive force isn't a general term in the gun world, hence why you haven't heard it before.

First - what possible source could you be referring to to state with a straight face that the 8mm can be loaded to same or higher pressures as the 30-06"

I'll pick two actions - and FN600 and a M700 Remington. Show me a relaible source (any one will do for starters) that has tested these two in a statistically meaningful manner which supports this interesting statement? Same Brass, primers and bullet weight - vary the powder to achieve relative burn rates

Second - the greater diameter of the 8mm WILL enable a higher velocity somewhere in the middle range of bullet weights like 180-198gr but doesn't at the lower range.

Here is a factory 30-06 - one of the world famous 'light loads' so disdained by 8x57JS lovers - MV= 3,100 fps which is higher than your reload 8mm. Find a factory load in 8mm that is faster?

https://www.hornady.com/shop/?page=b...duct_sku=85199

we can one-up each other on re-loads if you wish. I have both my eyes and all my fingers because I do pay attention to pressure signs. I have a couple of actions that individually (not in ANY way recommended by Mfr) that are probably capable of 70K psi but I'm not going there just to chase hot reloads.

You may seek any reload data you wish. I noticed your source mentioned 56K (+) so you perhaps overlooked a little bit what the max pressure was or could be for those loads - I would be suspicious of the "+" as well as pulling a load from a website.

I'll stick with Nosler 5th Edition and Hogdon, Speer and Barnes because the loads are all lab tested - and in some cases with some rifles I have seen some pressure signs even with these

On the factory loads I was quoting to you for the 8x57JS I used Norma and RW which I believe are still made 'somewhere in Europe"?? Both were hotter than Remington and Hornady factory rounds.

Here is another factory load for 165Gr 30-06 at 2802fps

https://www.hornady.com/shop/?page=b...duct_sku=85159

I noticed that the Max load tested by Nosler #5, for 8mmx57JS, for the 180gr NBT was 49.0 gr Varget at 2669fps w/24"bbl

The Nosler max load for 30-06 was 2872fps for 24" for the 180gr NBT using 61 gr RL22 - hotter than the Hornady Light Mag and way hotter than the fastest reload in Nosler (only this example). This is my personal Elk load when I'm not using the 338-06 w/225gr accubond

As to "drive force" (your first reason for using that phrase was to 'demonstrate' why the 8mm kicked more...) that doesn't float as far as recoil is concerned - the recoil force is still 1/2 MV>2 until you show me the math on some nebulous pressure distribution that proves that the 30-06 bullet
accelerates much slower initially then picks up velocity much faster

Regards,

Bill

[Soren]

You just want to argue Bill, I get it ! There's nothing to argue about though cause the 8x57mm JS is faster than the 30.06 - esp. with heavier rounds. I'd like you to show me any 30.06 load that drives a 198gr bullet to 2,850 fps like the 8x57mm can please ! And mind you this was a load used operationally by the Germans ! But still don't get started about lab testing, its as good as any testing done by yourself, so your mentioning of it is completely and utterly pointless.

Turkish 154gr 8x57mm surplus ammunition will on average do 2,950 fps in the Gewehr 98, with no pressure signs what so ever. 3,100 isn't an anomaly with Turkish 154gr ball either, and still no pressure signs.

And here's a recipe for how to drive a 200gr Sierra Match king bullet to ~2,700 fps in the 8x57mm JS: Load 10023 detail in caliber 8x57 JS

As to recoil, well recoil rises with KE or momentum, they're directly connected - the bigger the KE at the muzzle, the bigger the recoil = Newtons law. Drive force = max possible MV with x bullet mass. The higher possible MV with x bullet mass the higher the recoil.

PS: I have never found any of the loads that I've acquired from the reloading sites to be much off or at all dangerous so again you made a completely pointless remark.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Soren

You just want to argue Bill, I get it ! There's nothing to argue about though cause the 8x57mm JS is faster than the 30.06 - esp. with heavier rounds. I'd like you to show me any 30.06 load that drives a 198gr bullet to 2,850 fps like the 8x57mm can please ! And mind you this was a load used operationally by the Germans ! But still don't get started about lab testing, its as good as any testing done by yourself, so your mentioning of it is completely and utterly pointless.

Turkish 154gr 8x57mm surplus ammunition will on average do 2,950 fps in the Gewehr 98, with no pressure signs what so ever. 3,100 isn't an anomaly with Turkish 154gr ball either, and still no pressure signs.

And here's a recipe for how to drive a 200gr Sierra Match king bullet to ~2,700 fps in the 8x57mm JS: Load 10023 detail in caliber 8x57 JS

As to recoil, well recoil rises with KE or momentum, they're directly connected - the bigger the KE at the muzzle, the bigger the recoil = Newtons law. Drive force = max possible MV with x bullet mass. The higher possible MV with x bullet mass the higher the recoil.

PS: I have never found any of the loads that I've acquired from the reloading sites to be much off or at all dangerous so again you made a completely pointless remark.

To your last statement - How would you KNOW whether they were dangerous? Have you ever used strain gauges on a rifle? I HAVE, as well as chronograph closely when I work up to max loads - neither sufficient unto themselves to guarantee safety but far better that 'spray and pray'. Do you spray and pray?

Simply stated, and repeated once again, the 30-06 is faster with the 150 and 165 and the 8x56JS is faster in 190 and above. They are both close in the 170-180gr range.

And no, 2950 avg is NOT the same as 3100fps!!! Not in my world and probably not in Czech world - can't comment on German world or the world you live in? Which world do you live in?.

Recoil may 'rise' with mass x Velocity but what we have been talking about is Force which by the way is how you measure RECOIL - IT ain't MOMENTUM - it is FORCE.. Force equal mass x Acceleration - NOT mass x velocity. The KE of 30-06 with 150gr > KE of 8x57JS because the Mass is the same and the Velocity is greater for the 06 betweeen the two loads.

RECOIL FORCE = 1/2x mass x (VELOCITY)squared ----->not MV in the case of rifle ballistics. If we were talking about Gyrojet rocket rounds from the 60's in which we had a round that was constantly accelerating then it would be F=Ma at the point it left the barrel

If you have a FACTORY load which is greater than the Hornady load - post it... but for simple people like me don't try to imply that a Czech load at 2950 is faster than the Hornady Light Mag load at 3100. I did my best counting toes, ears and fingers (plus other appendages) and I still can't reconcile your supercilious statements>

I am to take from your avatar that you have some link to being a sniper - and I give you benefit of the doubt that a.) you do reload and b.) you know something about ballistics. But.......

People will think You are arguing for arguing sake.

Go back to any post I have made and see for yourself - I have NEVER CLAIMED THAT A 30-06 with 190gr and above can be LOADED SAFELY FASTER THAN A 190 gr (OR ABOVE) load AT SAFE PRESSURES THAN AN 8x57JS. I have maintained and CONTINUE to maintain that the 30-06 is faster across the board than the 8x57JS for equivalent pressures for rounds equal to or under 165Gr.

I will also tell you that necking up a 30-06 to 338 will overshadow the 8x57JS at 200gr and above - we can now dabble in the effect of "Drive Force" and show simply that the greater case capacity of the 30-06 will have a difference when you step up to 8mm or .338 - but that isn't our argument

I HAVE ZERO idea what your background is but on one hand you sound knowledgeable and the next you make some silly statements about Physics and Engineering.

If you don't compare pressures then you aren't working to a common benchmark of FACT based discussion. People Get KILLED F@#@#$king around with maz/overmax loads

But, since you don't want to play in that sandbox let's jo go to what you can buy in Germany or America

FACT - 30-06 in a PUBLISHED factory max load is 3,100 fps. Hornady Light Mag is what I postulate

FACT - the best 8x57JS published load you have shown for a rifle is 2950 fps as best in Czech military ball load. Get a faster load

FACT - both the RECOIL and MOMENTUM in a same action and same weight rifle firing both rounds will experience MORE RECOIL and MOmentum in the 30-06 at THAT Muzzle Velocity.

FACT - the 8x57JS in 198gr in FACTORY will exceed a 190 or 200 gr FACTORY 30-06 in both Momentum AND Recoil Force for the publishedd maximum 8x57JS facory ammo.

IF you consider this arguing "just to make an argument" - then I stand guilty as charged!

Having said that I really want to know what engineering and ballistics expertise you bring to this argument. At one moment you sound intelligent and fact based and others you sound ?? but not fact based in your arguments. Tell me at least that you have at least a BS degree in Aerodynamics or Performance for your arguments in that field - or have a long base of experience in ballistics.

Regards,

Bill

[lesofprimus]

Recoil may 'rise' with mass x Velocity but what we have been talking about is Force which by the way is how you measure RECOIL - IT ain't MOMENTUM - it is FORCE.. Force equal mass x Acceleration - NOT mass x velocity. The KE of 30-06 with 150gr > KE of 8x57JS because the Mass is the same and the Velocity is greater for the 06 betweeen the two loads.

I agree 100% with Bill on that one...

I am to take from your avatar that you have some link to being a sniper - and I give you benefit of the doubt

Actually, its his signature that shows the sniper, his avatar is of the Ta 152H....

If you don't compare pressures then you aren't working to a common benchmark of FACT based discussion. People Get KILLED F@#@#$king around with maz/overmax loads

And I know a couple of fellas that only have 9 and 8 digits because of this...

[Soren]

I have plenty of experience with ballistics, I've been shooting firearms since I was a boy and I've been in the military for over 20 years straight. I'm not a gun expert but I know my fair share on the subject, and to be honest I think your knowledge on the subject is lacking in some areas Bill.

First of all its TURKISH ball ammunition, not Czech, and like I said it'll do 3,100 fps in the Gewehr 98 (740 mm barrel). So in my experience the 8x57mm JS round is as fast or faster than the 30-06 with different weight bullets, with heigher weight bullets the 8x57mm is always markedly faster.

And as to your recoil explanation, well all I can say is you're being awfully anal. We're saying the exact same thing - fact is the higher the KE at the muzzle the higher the recoil.

As to my "Degree" in aerodynamics, well I'm an educated engineer and have been studying this field for a long long time now and I'd say I know all the basics, alot of the complex and alot more - am I an expert in the field ? No, I'd need alot more experience with the modern aerodynamics programs of today and there are still some complex characteristics I need to learn about. But since you asked what statements about aerodynamics of mine is it you find to be incorrect ?