The Best Assault Rifle.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Soren

I have plenty of experience with ballistics, I've been shooting firearms since I was a boy and I've been in the military for over 20 years straight. I'm not a gun expert but I know my fair share on the subject, and to be honest I think your knowledge on the subject is lacking in some areas Bill.

First of all its TURKISH ball ammunition, not Czech, and like I said it'll do 3,100 fps in the Gewehr 98 (740 mm barrel). So in my experience the 8x57mm JS round is as fast or faster than the 30-06 with different weight bullets, with heigher weight bullets the 8x57mm is always markedly faster.

And as to your recoil explanation, well all I can say is you're being awfully anal. We're saying the exact same thing - fact is the higher the KE at the muzzle the higher the recoil.

As to my "Degree" in aerodynamics, well I'm an educated engineer and have been studying this field for a long long time now and I'd say I know all the basics, alot of the complex and alot more - am I an expert in the field ? No, I'd need alot more experience with the modern aerodynamics programs of today and there are still some complex characteristics I need to learn about. But since you asked what statements about aerodynamics of mine is it you find to be incorrect ?

Soren - are you by chance, with your 20+ years of gun expertise, aware of the effect of longer barrels on velocity?

And based on that knowledge you would state that TURK (or any nationstate you choose) 8x57JS 154 gr ammunition will get within 150fps of the loads I cited? With 24 inch barrel?

I set the foundation for a rational argument by citing velocities for a 24" barrel and you come back to me with ballistics for a 740mm (`29") barrel??? which should yield 35-50fps increment for each extra inch of length?

And then you describe me as anal when I delineate the difference between Force and Momentum?

Do the math for ballistics between Force and Kinetic Energy

F= 1/2x Mx (V)>2 and you say that is the same as MxV ?

So, using your engineering background 1/2 x M x(V) squared = M x V?

next step : divide both sides of equation by M yielding

1/2 (V)squared = V??----> "And as to your recoil explanation, well all I can say is you're being awfully anal. We're saying the exact same thing - fact is the higher the KE at the muzzle the higher the recoil."

Fact - the higher the KE at the muzzle the higher the recoil.

NOT Fact - "We're saying the exact same thing"

In my world one half of Velocity squared is not the same as Velocity

Soren - you are a smart guy and don't have to resort to trickery to win an argument - just stick to the facts and jump me when I don't have facts, I can actually learn even at my age.. but you tried to slip one through with the 740 mm barrel length when we were talking pure and verifyable ballistics of two separate cartriges for same boundary conditions.

As to your aero knowledge, you don't make many mistakes that I can see but every once in awhile a few 'clankers' resonate which caused me to ask the question. And don't get me wrong - I've been out of the performance and strucures biz for 30 years and only in aerodynamics for two years.

Like you I am not prepared to dive into an in-depth discussion of hypersonic boundary layer separation using Chaos Theory - not at the real and practical level.

Last but not least, depending on your definition of Expert - I may be one, or not depending on your point of view. If the definition is fire and field strip every military firearm in use today - nope.. last count is six. I have never set the headspace on a Ma Duece or any light/heavy machine gun of any type.

If the definition is ballistics, propellants reloading and the ability to field strip about any modern commercial firearm - yes by experience or ability to find it in my reference library if I haven't seen it before. I build my own stocks - both from straight blank and semi-inletted - rifle and shotgun, including sidelocks. I can re-barrel and headspace a new barrel and used to have a lathe which I used to thread and turn barrel blanks or use to take up some threads after re-chambering for some nebulous wild cat.

I shot Expert in pistol and rifle and ranked as lifetime NRA Master in International Skeet. (I can't SHOOT Master anymore - I'm too old and slow) I have competed and competed well in both Columbaire and Box Flyers domestically and internationally, winning seven HOA in major shoots of 3 days or more in places like Guadalajara, Dallas and Madrid. I have hunted big game and birds on four continents. This is not bragging - there are many better shooters than me, but this is my qualification resume to discuss any of the above subjects intelligently with you

I know more about all of these subjects than most people - but I might not meet your standards for expertise and we can leave it at that.

Regards,

Bill

[Soren]

Listen lets bury the Hatchet here Bill, I think we're coming to agreement in the end anyways.

This whole argument started because we BOTH were nitpicking, you might as-well admit it - and yes I know I do it sometimes myself I admit, and I think everybody here on the forum knows it as-well.

I didn't try to sneak anything passed you Bill, I made clear from the start that that the Turkish factory milsurp ammo would do 3,100 fps in the Gewehr 98. And yes I know what effect the barrel lenght mostly has on velocity with rifle-rounds and bigger, but even with a 600mm barrel it isn't hard to reach 3,100 fps with the 154gr Turkish stuff, it really isn't.

Firing the 7.92mm 12.8 gram sS FMJ-BT projectile in the 8x57 IS at 785 m/s is only utilizing 69 - 70% of the cartridge's pressure potential.

About the 30-06 being faster with light bullets, well you might be right, 3,200 fps is faster than any 7.92x57mm round I've shot through a 60cm barrel so far - I've come very close though.

[drgondog]

nuff said -hoist one for the nit pickers - Prosit

Regards,

Bill

[SoD Stitch]

Dunno if anyone's already put this one forward (probably; it would take me an hour to read this whole thread), but what about the M4? Weapon of choice for US Special Forces and the D boys, easier to handle than a -16, and mostly steel. Almost as accurate as a -16A2, just as accurate at short range.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Well as a former US Army soldier who has used the M4 and fired the AK on many occasions I can say the AK is much better.

Give me an AK or a G-36.

[MacArther]

DerAlder, what are your thoughts on the X8 assault rifle that will someday replace something else?

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I honestly dont have an oppinion on it. I think more testing is required on it but it should be an excellent weapon when it is fielded.