Best Dogfighter Poll Revisited...

[plan_D]

If it was as simple as you made out, then the Germans would have never intercepted the bomber formations. The roaming escort was effective, but in fact the Spitfire would not need to chase the Mustang. The reason being, unlike the Fw-190 and -109, the Spitfire would out-dogfight the Mustang, if the Mustang wanted to run away, it could because the Spitfire wouldn't need to give chase. It would just carry on to the bombers, while the Mustang is trying to re-adjust for its own advantage.
While it's re-adjusting, the bombers have been caught and slaughtered.

Originally Posted by plan_D

If it was as simple as you made out, then the Germans would have never intercepted the bomber formations. The roaming escort was effective, but in fact the Spitfire would not need to chase the Mustang. The reason being, unlike the Fw-190 and -109, the Spitfire would out-dogfight the Mustang, if the Mustang wanted to run away, it could because the Spitfire wouldn't need to give chase. It would just carry on to the bombers, while the Mustang is trying to re-adjust for its own advantage.
While it's re-adjusting, the bombers have been caught and slaughtered.

But that only could occur after the Spitfires overcame the initial speed advantage of the P-51's. And by the time that is accomplished, the bombers are probably beyond Spitfire interception.

And again, the Spitfire could not out-dogfight the P-51 at high speeds. Above 350 IAS, the P-51 had the clear advantage, and above 300 IAS it held a slight advantage.

[plan_D]

A clear advantage, so you're claiming that the Mustang was a better dogfighter.
In World War 2, planes could not keep up speed for long. The Mustang would need to slaughter on the first pass, and keep it fast by dropping lower and lower. The Spitfire didn't need to follow.

Originally Posted by plan_D

A clear advantage, so you're claiming that the Mustang was a better dogfighter.
In World War 2, planes could not keep up speed for long. The Mustang would need to slaughter on the first pass, and keep it fast by dropping lower and lower. The Spitfire didn't need to follow.

If the speed was high enough, yes the Mustang was a better "dogfighter" (your term). Spitfires at altitude were full wing versions, and rolled rather poorly at even moderate speeds, and quite poorly at high speeds.

The P-51 would use energy tactics. It attacks on the first pass and then levels out and zoom climbs. The Spitfires either engage or are subject to another free pass. To be effective, the Spitfires need to turn and fight. But in doing so, they loose their intercept opportunity. The same tactics that worked on 109G's would work on Spitfires.

[plan_D]

If that's the case, what happened to all those bombers falling mysteriously out of the sky?

Originally Posted by plan_D

If that's the case, what happened to all those bombers falling mysteriously out of the sky?

Not that many were lost to fighters once the P-51's were on the scene in force were they? In fact, the Luftwaffe' got their asses handed to them on a platter.

[plan_D]

Not many were lost? What World War 2 are you looking into?

Originally Posted by plan_D

Not many were lost? What World War 2 are you looking into?

Not that many heavies were lost to enemy fighters after about July 1944, and by Oct. 1944 the Luftwaffe' was practically non-existant.

[Erich]

the Luftwaffe was quite a viable force till it moved from Reich defence to the Ost front in January 45. The Nachtjagd was nver quelled actually by the RAF, it swas due to the confinement of the Reich and lack of fuels

The Luftwaffe' pretty much hid from the USAAF after summer 1944. Only on a few occassions did they try to attack in force. Bomber losses to fighters dropped to minimal levels as compared to the 1943 and early 1944 levels.

Germany still actually had plenty of fuel production for aircraft useage. They just could not get it from production to the aircraft that needed it - becuase of Allied air interdiction.

=S=

Lunatic

[Erich]

the order by "Fatty" was to attack at all costs or suffer the consquences in 44, including keeping the drop tank in place. the Sturmgruppen first mission was 7-7-44 so no the Luftwaffe was not absent from the skies in the least bit. for the amount of German a/c-pilots in the skies of 44 they dealt out more death than all the Reich defence of late 43 and early 44. Because of the success's of the SturmFw units in the July-august 44 moths all Fw and Bf 109 gruppen were to change their tactics to angriff über hinten. And becaue they did attack like this and tried to linger for another Gefechtsverband they were caught by P-51's and beaten up

Originally Posted by Erich

the order by "Fatty" was to attack at all costs or suffer the consquences in 44, including keeping the drop tank in place. the Sturmgruppen first mission was 7-7-44 so no the Luftwaffe was not absent from the skies in the least bit. for the amount of German a/c-pilots in the skies of 44 they dealt out more death than all the Reich defence of late 43 and early 44. Because of the success's of the SturmFw units in the July-august 44 moths all Fw and Bf 109 gruppen were to change their tactics to angriff über hinten. And becaue they did attack like this and tried to linger for another Gefechtsverband they were caught by P-51's and beaten up

Late summer of 1944 was the last gasp of the Luftwaffe'. By the end of October they were beaten. Bomber losses, especially to fighters, fell considerably after that point.

[Erich]

Really =S=

better do some more research friend

27 SEptember 1944 30 B-24's lost by the 445th bg group alone.

6 October 1944 94th bg lost 4 over Berlin, the 385th lost 11 plus, the entire "B" group shattered by SturmFW's

7 October 1944 the 94th again is shattered by losing 8 plus to SturmFw's.

21 November 44 one US bg loses 10 B-17's to JG 301 and JG 1 Fw's

26 November 44 my cousin KIA, JG 301 nearly destroys the 491st bg with the destruction of 16 bombers and clobbering the 445th with 5 confirmed destroyed ? damaged.

September 11, 44 as a back up the 100th bg is assaulted by JG 4 and is crapped on with losses of some 11 B-17's and the 92nd bg loses 8 to IV.Sturm/JG 3 Fw's.

granted I am picking select incidences but these are terrible losses by individual bomb groups not just huge bomber armadas with bg's losing 1-2 bombers apiece. the point I am trying to make is that the Luftwaffe during the summer-fall months of 44 was a more effective force in bringing down bombers than it was in the spring with fewere a/c and pilots.

November 2, 44 is another gut ripping incident with some 35 US bombers shot down by 2 gruppen of SturmFw's.

Note in practically no cases have I listed any other Luftwaffe defence units, except for one, and these muyst be given credit where credit is due upon their defence even in dealing with horrendous numbers of P-51's.

Only after 14th of janusary 45 was the effectiveness of the Luftwaffe delinquished and that as I have repeated in other threads, when the Defnce of the Reich was left wide open and only 4-5 Reich defence units were left to defend Germany/ the others sent to the Ost front.

[Lightning Guy]

Those are some impressive totals, but you also have to remember that the 8th was putting up some where around 1000 heavies for each mission. 30 bombers out of 1000 is a far cry from the 30 out of 300 that was so common during late '43.

[evangilder]

Keep in mind that there were about 10 guys per bomber though. That's 300 men! Some became POWs, but I have seen statistics that show about 60% of them made it out alive to become POWs. I don't know how accurate that is, I have not actually done the research myself nor seen a source. I just heard it from someone else. Either way, that's 300 guys that have to be replaced.