Best Dogfighter Poll Revisited...

[GermansRGeniuses]

Originally Posted by plan_D

That's the most informative post EVER, I think it even beats some of the good ole brads worthless piles of s**t, waste my time, I'm going to sue you for my time back posts.

I WILL make one worse, just to trump his...



You have been warned.

[GermansRGeniuses]

[GermansRGeniuses]

I told you.


That post was so bad, it got me two UNconfirmed kills. *Edit*~Though editing the one preceding it gave me less, a mere 0.02 unconfirmed kills...


Yes, that is a post; if you quote it, you will see that it consists of a simple "space."

[plan_D]

You should be proud. Go on, be proud GrG.

[GermansRGeniuses]

Do I get an iPod mini as a prize for my accomplishments?


But yes, I am proud.

[plan_D]

You'll get your iPod when I decide to give up drinking...

[GermansRGeniuses]

Damn you!


In order to help you remember, I've added a special something to my siggy.

[plan_D]

That's a good reminder. I think I've become jealous of your award, I want one too but what...?

Geeze Udet,

I just don't know where you come up with this crap...

Originally Posted by Udet

RG_Lunatic:

Surely I have not been around the way Erich has; I am 21, and began knowing and learning about that s**t world war two thing 5 or 6 years ago. I`ve had the chance of speaking with veterans of several of the nations involved as well.

So I'm nearly twice your age, and have met a lot of WWII aces and non-ace pilots. I grew up around Navy, USMC, and some USAAF pilots, and heard many stories of the war. I also heard tales of WWII aircombat from British and Canadian pilots when I was very young. I also have several relatives (most now dead) who fought in WWII. I've only spoken to a few German pilots, and only one Japanese pilot.

Originally Posted by Udet

You are highly influenced by the propaganda of your country; i am telling you this only with good intentions. It is not my aim to insult.

That is your opinion. My opinion is that, aside from a few clear exceptions, most German technology did not advance very much during the war. They started out with an initial advantage, but slowly lost that advantage in most areas as time progressed. The primary exception to this would be in tank quality.

Originally Posted by Udet

Why do you think victory of the USA is the exclusive product of superior weapons, superior tactics and the like?

Hmmm... I think the Allied soldiers had a superior war machine behind them. As for superior tactics... I don't think that applies at all. As for superior weapons, this was true in some places, and not in others. But where it counted most, it was generally true.

Originally Posted by Udet

Have you ever thought the German soldiers were sent to fight a war not even the very best warriors can win?

I totally disagree. Had Germany geared up it's war machine in 1940 or even 1941, they may well have won WWII. But instead they waited until very late 1943 or even 1944 to do so.

Originally Posted by Udet

It is called MATH. The most basic of the mathemathical notions. The Luftwaffe was fighting three large air forces (RAF, USAAF and VVS) throughout and across vast and distant regions; that is not the fault of the allied pilots, but it happened to be a GREAT advantage for them.

And through most of the war, especially w.r.t. the air war, the Germans were defending which is a GREAT ADVANTAGE FOR THEM!

Originally Posted by Udet

The German soldiers and pilots in my opinion, are among the very greatest of the war. They were fighting a war impossible of winning. They gave the mind, the body and the blood for their nation, just like the guys of the USAAF, RAF and VVS.

Well, I agree, in general this is true. With a few notable execptions (such as Italy), the soldiers of all sides fought valiently.

As for the quality of German soldiering... I think it was sustained in the early years by amphetamines, which can work well for the short term but this cannot work over time.

Originally Posted by Udet

It was the lunatics on top of the power of the Reich who did not do their job the way it should. See the work the Luftwaffe boys did with the VVS in 1942-43?

I agree about the leadership.

As for the VVS... You mean 1941 and 1942 right? During this time, the German pilots racked up huge numbers of kills against much inferior aircraft. By 1943 they were not doing quite so well, and by 1944 the tide had turned.

Originally Posted by Udet

What else could the government of nation at war expect from any branch of its armed forces? The Luftwaffe guys faced a brave opponent, but virtually erased it in such a brutal manner the USAAF never ever came even close to achieve against the Luftwaffe in 1944.

You are talking about the VVS? They may have been "brave", but that does not mean much when you are facing 109's and 190's in Yak-1's and Lagg-3's and Biplanes. Something like one-third of German kills scored on the E. Front in 1941 and 1942 were against bi-planes and non-military aircraft. And the USAAF did achieve an equivalent level of success against the Luftwaffe' in 1944 - mostly against planes parked on the ground because the pilots would not come up to fight. And the Luftwaffe' aircraft were never so obsolete as the Russian aircraft encounterd in the early E. Front war.

Originally Posted by Udet

Allegiance to one´s country does not apply only for victors.

A nation like Germany, could produce great planes and great pilots. The Luftwaffe´s human and material resources, however, had to be sent and scattered across huge frontlines (from the artic circle to the mediterranean heat, from the coasts of France to the soviet steppes) to fight against the large air forces of 3 enemy nations; there lies the issue RG.

You are saying the German's had to cover more territory than the USA? The USA also had to fight from the Arctic circle to mediteranean. From the coast of France to the Sea of Japan. From the mountains of Burma to the Soloman islands. Yes it only had to fight two air-forces - but those were airforces prepared for war from the start - Germany faced airforces which were not prepared. And Germany never had to build an Navy. The US efforts in building its Pacific fleet dwarf the entire German war effort.

Originally Posted by Udet

You are convinced the P-51 was absolutely superior to everything the Germans fielded? Sorry but you are wrong. That victory was achieved does not mean the victors were better and superior at every department.

No I don't think that. I think it was competitive with anything the Germans could field, except maybe the 262. But it did so over Germany! It was able to take that competitiveness to the Germans, no German plane could do that against the Allies, even as far back as the BoB.

Originally Posted by Udet

What makes you think the allied pilots who shot down German experten in dogfights were superior to the Germans? Have you got any idea of the countless elements that can arise during a dogfight?

I never said the Allied pilots were superior to the German pilots, so I don't know where your getting this crap from.

Originally Posted by Udet

Mr. Celebrity, Chuck Yeager, who speaks like if he made the greatest combat pilot in the history of arms, got himself surpassed and shot down in dogfight by a German pilot. You did not considered the gentleman lucky to be alive though.

I think you are making far too much of Yeager having been shot down. Almost every German ace got shot down many times. One of the Experten was shot down something like 17 times! The difference is that when Yeager was shot down, he was shot down over enemy territory. Yes he was lucky to be alive, but he was more lucky to escape capture. Most German aces were shot down behind their own lines, making it much less likely they'd be captured if they survived.

Originally Posted by Udet

If being inside a small plane, having machine gun bullets and even cannon shells hitting and exploding a few meters and/or centimeters away from your body and not getting killed or badly wounded ain´t luck, then it would perhaps be interesting to know what your notion of luck is.

Of course it is luck. But the fact is most pilots did survive the initial damage to their planes. The question was could they crash land their plane or survive bailing out. I really think you need to research the histories of some WWII aces. You will see that most of the double Aces and beyond got shot down at least once, ESPECIALLY THE GERMAN ACES!

Originally Posted by Udet

RG: sum the fatal casualties of both the RAF and the USAAF bomber forces, and you will discover their losses were everything but low, not even moderate applies; the Luftwaffe inflicted frightful losses to both air forces. That the Luftwaffe took very heavy losses? Of course!! That is what they were there for, and they were totally outnumbered

Sure, because the chances of surviving being shot down in a Heavy Bomber were not very good. On average, well more than half the crew died when a bomber was shot down. In a fighter, the odds were not nearly so bad as in a bomber.

Originally Posted by Udet

As Erich correctly put it: the RAF, even if having the mossie, could never ever effectively come nowhere close to taming the NachtJagd of the Luftwaffe.

I doubt this is true. Had the night war gone on much longer, Allied radar equipped night fighters would have become extremely effective. The P-63 for instance. Allied radar had intrinsic advantages over German radar and in the end this would have meant much superior night fighters. This never happened simply because the war did not last long enough and the German night fighters were never really that effective. They certainly were not stopping the British night bomber offensive - they weren't even slowing it down much!

You totally mis-understand me. A big part of the Allied advantage was indeed the productive capacity of both the USA and the British. But a big part of it was also the breadth of the industrial base. Over time, Allied technology had to surpass German technology simply because the ceiling was higher because the base was broader.

=S=

Lunatic

[the lancaster kicks ass]

wow some very good points there............

[cheddar cheese]

Originally Posted by GermansRGeniuses

I told you.


That post was so bad, it got me two UNconfirmed kills. *Edit*~Though editing the one preceding it gave me less, a mere 0.02 unconfirmed kills...


Yes, that is a post; if you quote it, you will see that it consists of a simple "space."

Im sorry GrG, its been done. brad has done that before...I remember it well, Crazy replied with "This, a post of EPIC proportions, is one that is sure to shatter boundries of our very beliefs"



Sorry to shatter your bubble, but its true

[plan_D]

No, he did three dots...I'm sure of it.

[cheddar cheese]

Nope, it was a simple space. brads excuse was "I forgot what I was going to say"

[plan_D]

Excellent, I love it.

[P51ace 16]

what is it with the frikin spitfire The mustang is so much better