Best Dogfighter Poll Revisited...

[LTARaptr]

Tuskeegee Airmen what did they fly and how many bombers did they lose. point made I hope.

P.S.
If you didn't know They flew Mustangs and lost 0 bombers the only squad that can brag that fact I believe .

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by LTARaptr

Tuskeegee Airmen what did they fly and how many bombers did they lose. point made I hope.

P.S.
If you didn't know They flew Mustangs and lost 0 bombers the only squad that can brag that fact I believe

And it had nothing to do with the plane they flew. Had they encountered a top notch experten we wouldn't be having this conversation...

they were fine pilots, however the P-51 was over-rated but it did accomplish the mission....

[evangilder]

Agreed, Joe. The Tuskegee airmen stayed with the bombers, that was their orders. Other FGs were allowed free reign to attack targets of opportunity, leaving the bombers. The P-51 was a good plane, but there were better ones too.

[CurzonDax]

Granted I may have missed this in all of the pages but we are also forgetting the pilot itself. Part of the skill of dogfighting also comes from training and experience. In Hoyt's McCampbell bio the pilots tell (and in my opinion in a very humorous fashion) of them in '44 going up against a Japanese pilot in a Zero that they describe as "old school" and no matter what McCampbell's boys did, and they were not slouches either, they could not get a shot in on the Zero becuase this pilot was obviously a very old hand in the dogfighting game and out flew the Navy boys.

Grated this is an extreme example but my point is that the equipment was important but so was the skill and the experience of the pilot. Look at the beginnig of BARBAROSSA, many Red AF aircraft were very manueverable, arguably more than the 109s the GAF flew but the experience of the GAF won over the the Red AF boys, those that could get off the ground.

My two yen on this.

:{)

[evangilder]

Absolutely, that does make a difference in the fight, but having a good plane with a good pilot can be a great combo. Could you imagine what the Filipino pilots who became aces in P-26s against Zeroes could have done with something more updated, even a P-40?

I think everyone here agrees that pilot skill will most likely determine the victor, but the poll is which airplane would be the best for a pilot.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by LTARaptr

Tuskeegee Airmen what did they fly and how many bombers did they lose. point made I hope.

P.S.
If you didn't know They flew Mustangs and lost 0 bombers the only squad that can brag that fact I believe .

Read this pal...

From another member in another post....


Fw-190 D-9 Statistics:

Engine: Junkers Jumo 213A1 with MW-50 boost.
Power: 2,240 HP.
Max. Speed: 704 km/h. (438 mph.)
Max. Climb: 1110 m/min (3,642 ft/min.)
Empty Weight: 3,490 kg. (7,694 lbs.)
Loaded Weight *Clean*: 4,293 kg. (9,464 lbs.)
Max. Weight: 4,839 kg. (10,670 lbs.)
Wing-Span: 10.50 m. (34.4 ft.)
Wing-Area: 18.3 sq.m. (197 sq.ft.)
Armament: 2x 13mm HMG's (MG 131) & 2x 20mm cannons (MG 151/20).

Fw-190 D-9 Aerodynamic statistics:

Wing-loading *Loaded*: 234.59 kg/sq.m. (48 lbs/sq.ft.)
Wing Aspect-Ratio: 6.02.
Airfoil: NACA 23015.3 - NACA 23009.
Airfoil Thickness Ratio: Root= 15.3% Tip= 9% .
Wing CL-max *Freeflow*: 1.52 .

Lift-loading *Loaded*: 154.33 kg/sq.m. (31.5 lbs/sq.ft.)
Power-loading *Loaded*: 1.91 kg/hp. (4.22 lbs/hp.)

Fw-190 D-9 Additional features:

-Bubble-canopy & Flettner Tabs.
-Inclined seat position for better G-load resistance.


P-51D Mustang Statistics:

Engine: Packard Merlin V-1650-7.
Power: 1,790 HP.
Max.Speed: 703 km/h (437mph).
Max. Climb: 1011 m/min. (3,320 ft/min)
Empty Weight: 3,466 kg. (7,641 lbs.)
Loaded Weight *Clean*: 5,034 kg. (11,100 lbs.)
Max. Weight: 5,489 kg. (12,100 lbs.)
Wing-Span: 11.3 m. (37.07 ft.)
Wing-Area: 21.64 sq.m. (233 sq.ft.)
Armament: 6x .50 cal HMG's (M2).

P-51D Mustang Aerodynamic statistics:

Wing-Loading *Loaded*: 232.62 kg/sq.m. (47.6 lbs/sq.ft.)
Wing Aspect-Ratio: 5.81 .
Airfoil: "Laminar" NAA/NACA 45-100 - NAA/NACA 45-100.
Airfoil Thickness Ratio: Root= 14.8 or 15% Tip= 12%.
Wing CL-max: 1.28 .

Lift-loading *Loaded*: 181.73 kg/sq.m. (37.18 lbs/sq.ft.)
Power-loading *Loaded*: 2.81 kg/hp. (6.2 lbs/hp.)

P-51D Mustang Additional features:

-Laminar wing & Tear-shaped canopy.
-Gyro-Gunsight.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Aerodynamic Facts:

Airfoil Thickness Ratio - Higher is better.
Airfoil CL-max - Higher is better.
Wing Aspect Ratio - Higher is better.

Lift-loading - Lower is better.
Power-loading - Lower is better.

Wing Aspect ratio info:
High aspect ratio wings have long spans (like high performance gliders), while low aspect ratio wings have either short spans (like the F-16 fighter) or thick chords (like the Space Shuttle). There is a component of the drag of an aircraft called induced drag which depends inversely on the aspect ratio. A higher aspect ratio wing has a lower drag and a higher lift than a lower aspect ratio wing. All else being equal, the higher the wing aspect ratio, the higher the wing Cl-max is also going to be.

Laminar wing info:
Laminar flow wings lowered the drag, but this came at the cost of lower lift, especially under high G loads. A Laminar flow wing will stall earlier and more violently than a conventional wing.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

It is easy to understand why the Fw-190D-9 was considered a nasty handful for the P-51D !

[evangilder]

I would go so far as to say that the FW-190 was a nasty handful for just about ANY allied fighter.

[Gnomey]

Originally Posted by evangilder

I would go so far as to say that the FW-190 was a nasty handful for just about ANY allied fighter.

I'd agree with that Eric, it would of been quite a handful.

[CurzonDax]

Oh yea, very nasty aircraft. A buddy of mine, and this is for the Trekkies in this list, compared the 190 to Klingon Bird of Prey. Fast and very heavily armed. Thank the goddess they could not cloak!

:{)

[wmaxt]

One thing that is also noticeable is that overall the Tuskegee Airmen didn't score very high because in close escort your not allowed to follow the attacker. This doesn't take anything away from the TA they hadhave a great record - I just wanted to point out that different tactics result in different outcomes.

wmaxt

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by wmaxt

One thing that is also noticeable is that overall the Tuskegee Airmen didn't score very high because in close escort your not allowed to follow the attacker. This doesn't take anything away from the TA they hadhave a great record - I just wanted to point out that different tactics result in different outcomes.

wmaxt

There was only one ace From the Tuskegee Airmen....

[plan_D]

I think it's pretty much agreed that the only Allied fighter really capable of taking on a Fw-190D-9 in one on one combat would be a Spitfire. I still disagree that the P-51 was over-rated, but I do agree that it was no dogfighter.

[wmaxt]

Originally Posted by plan_D

I think it's pretty much agreed that the only Allied fighter really capable of taking on a Fw-190D-9 in one on one combat would be a Spitfire. I still disagree that the P-51 was over-rated, but I do agree that it was no dogfighter.

The P-38s did, and and Galland himself in a Dora (I don't know if it was a 9 but it was late '44) couldn't get away from a P-38 until the 38 ran low on fuel and left, Galland was defensive the whole time.

The P-38 could go 1 on 1 with either. All three had both strongpoints and weaker points.

As always the trick was to fight your strengths to your opponents weaknesses. The P-51 like the Wildcat and the Hellcat used tactics and numbers to make up for their weaknesses and that made them winners.

wmaxt

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I think the P-51D was a great escort fighter but as planD said she was not a dogfighter and compared to the Spitfire and the Fw-190D would outlfy a P-51D. The reason the P-51 did so well was because of its numerical advantage and the abilitity to decide when to have the fight.

[lesofprimus]

All three had both strongpoints and weaker points.

I agree 100%, but out of the three, the P-38 pilot had to be the most competent because it was a more difficult machine to combat with...