Best Dogfighter Poll Revisited...

redcoat · 01-07-2005, 05:54 PM

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Originally Posted by plan_D

If the Hurricane was so good, why was it taken from frontline service in 1942?

Because its performance in terms of speed. climb and dive had fallen so far behind the other front line fighters in service.
Dog-fighting ability is only useful if you can get in a position to use it to your advantage.

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And don't get me wrong, I love the Hurricane. It was the saviour of Britain but the Spitfire is factually a better plane.

I totally agree with you, in fact if you look up the Battle of Britain thread you will see I say exactly the same thing.
This thread is about dog-fighting, or a turning fight. In this the Hurricane was a little better than the Spitfire, in everything else the Spitfire was better.

plan_D · 01-07-2005, 06:03 PM

A dogfight isn't always a turning-fight. Speed, climb, dive and roll can all work in a dogfight. The Spitfire surpassed the Hurricane in all those.

redcoat · 01-07-2005, 06:12 PM

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Originally Posted by plan_D

Excuse me? The Spitfire didn't engage the Zero in a turning fight? The Spitfire could engage the Zero anyway it wanted, it could turn much better than anything else in the skies over the CBI the Allies had.

No, when the Spitfire encountered the Zero for the first few times, it suffered high losses, because its pilots attempted to fight the same way as they did against the Bf 109. However when the pilots realized they couldn't out-turn a Zero, they changed their tactics and used the Spitfires better speed, climb and dive to defeat the Zero. It was using these tactics that the Spitfire achieved an 8 : 1 ratio

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And Hurricane turning inside of everything Allied?

The Hurricane could out-turn a Spitfire, are you aware of any other Allied fighter that could do this????

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Are you on drugs,

I could do with some. I've got quite a bit of back pain at the moment

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or is it a mental deficiant?

I've not been rude to you, therefore its good manners not to be rude to me

redcoat · 01-07-2005, 06:16 PM

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Originally Posted by plan_D

A dogfight isn't always a turning-fight.

That's exactly what a dog-fight is!

lesofprimus · 01-07-2005, 06:34 PM

I think some people have a different definition of the term "Dogfighter"......

plan_D · 01-07-2005, 06:35 PM

It was a question. How is that rude?

No, a dog-fight is when a fighter tangles with another. This doesn't automatically mean turning-fight. If the Spitfire is rolling on its back and diving away, is it turning? If it's climbing high over the Hurricane, flipping on its back and zooming back down on the Hurricane, is it turning?

redcoat · 01-07-2005, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plan_D

It was a question. How is that rude?

Are you a total prat...
Thats a question as well

redcoat · 01-07-2005, 06:57 PM

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Originally Posted by plan_D

No, a dog-fight is when a fighter tangles with another.

In close combat

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This doesn't automatically mean turning-fight. If the Spitfire is rolling on its back and diving away, is it turning?

Thats breaking off from a dog-fight

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If it's climbing high over the Hurricane, flipping on its back and zooming back down on the Hurricane, is it turning?

That called a 'bounce', its not dog-fighting.

Medvedya · 01-07-2005, 06:58 PM

Here's a statement for variety.

Pack it in with the cheap shots. Goes out to everybody.

evangilder · 01-07-2005, 10:10 PM

If I may say something about the Zero here. I have talked with a couple of fighter pilots and they agree that in a low speed dogfight, there was little chance of out-turning a zero. The ailerons on that plane were described "big as barn doors". They worked great at slower speeds. Once the speed picked up, they didn;t have the strength to hold the turn.

In the early days of the Pacific war, the Zero became almost mythical until the tactics were developed that could take advantage of it's weakness. The AVG, flying the P-40s were the first to develop the tactics of zooming in from higher altitude while firing and then zoom back up out of harms way.

Before those tactics were developed, the Zero was scoring kills against the US P-39, P-40, F4F, F2A Buffalo and P-26. The British were also losing to the Zero with the F2A, Hurricane and yes, the Spitfire. These were early war versions but the fact remains that early on in the Pacific Theater, the Zero was ruling the skies.

lesofprimus · 01-07-2005, 10:17 PM

So is that what u voted for in the poll e???

I think its obvious that I voted for the Fw-190D-9....... At that altitude, it was unmatched...

evangilder · 01-07-2005, 10:26 PM

Actually no, the Zero did better at lower altitudes. I pulled a bonehead and clicked the P-38, not meaning to. I was distracted when I clicked. I meant to click on the F6F. So I guess I left a hanging chad!

It was not an easy choice though. Is that an FW109, or 190? Sorry, I am not terribly familiar with some of the German designations, so I had not heard "Wurger" before. the vote was a toss up for me, F6F, FW-190 (assumed a 190, not 109), Spit or Corsair. They were all awesome. While I just talked up the Zero, it would not have been my top because of the lack of survivability. No armor plating and non self-sealing fuel tanks make it a flying deathtrap in my book.

lesofprimus · 01-07-2005, 10:49 PM

Damn man I made a typo.... Yes its supposed to read Fw-190D-9.....

***I have fixed the poll listing***

Lightning Guy · 01-07-2005, 11:08 PM

I am wondering how in the world some of these aircraft made it into this list? The P-47 was not a very good dogfigther. Nor was the Me-262. And where is the N1K2-J, beloved my so many on this site?

lesofprimus · 01-07-2005, 11:18 PM

I put it on there...... Dont know why it isnt there anymore.... HMmmmmmm.....

I remade this topic from another poster, so I kept his list and added some.....