Best Dogfighter Poll Revisited...

[lesofprimus]

Maybe we need to lose the name "Dogfighter" then, because some people believe there was more to a dogfighter than turning.....

If thats the case, the poll should be "Best turning plane".....

[Lightning Guy]

I disagree with the notion that turning was all that there was to it, but it was important. Being a good dogfighter basically means being able to turn, roll, and climb well.

[plan_D]

redcoat, the Fw-190 arrived in July 1941 over the skies of France. Far surpassing the Hurricane, and beating the Spitfire Mk. V. The Spitfire could out-climb, out-dive, out-roll, was faster, better acceleration, better armed...basically, just a better aircraft.

The Spitifre A-wings were under-armed. That's why they had the B,C and E-wings. My personal favourite is the E-wing (Two .50s and Two 20mm).
And dogfighting isn't all about turning.

Example - I was online on FB (with my CW Mk. IXe Spitfire) and went through a head-on pass against a La-5. Instead of turning round (I knew I could out-turn him, but I wanted to slaughter with style) I pulled up vertical, twisted starboard so my wing was facing him, banged the rudder over and fell down to face him. While the fool was turning - still - I came zooming down and tore his wing off. NO TURNING INVOLVED. Only moves were roll, climb and dive.

[The Jug Rules!]

Originally Posted by Adolf Galland

In my opinion the Ki-84 Frank by the Japs is better than the spit in almost every single thing exept speed(climb rate, armament, range, manuvability) but i do not think that anybodyhere notice that

Could you show me a picture of the Frank?

[The Jug Rules!]

Originally Posted by plan_D

Example - I was online on FB (with my CW Mk. IXe Spitfire) and went through a head-on pass against a La-5. Instead of turning round (I knew I could out-turn him, but I wanted to slaughter with style) I pulled up vertical, twisted starboard so my wing was facing him, banged the rudder over and fell down to face him. While the fool was turning - still - I came zooming down and tore his wing off. NO TURNING INVOLVED. Only moves were roll, climb and dive.

Aahhhhhh! My favorite move.

[plan_D]

Ki-84 'Frank' (Captured)



Ki-84 'Frank'

[cheddar cheese]

Apart from the long tail that captured one looks a hell of a lot like a P-47...

[wmaxt]

The P-38 had an incredible acceleration of 2.8mph/sec the P-51 was only 2.2mph/second. A big difference in combat.

The climb was still 3,700ft/min at 20,000ft.

Dive with the Compressibility slats was as good or better than any other.

Arts Comment on the erlier P-38s " Despite these revolting developments (The operational problems, wmaxt) the pilots of the 8th knew that the P-38 could out turn, outclimd, outrun and outfight anybodys airplane in the air so the set about rectifying their problems" and "It makes the Gospel Word. The P-38L. Now there was the airplane." He flew both P-38s and P-51s in combat.

In the words of Art Heiden "Nothing to these pilots, after the hard winter of '43-'44 could be more beautiful than a P-38L outrolling and tailgating a German fighter straight down, following a spin, split-S or whatever gyration a startled, panicked and doomed German might attempt to iniate. You just couldn't get away from the P-38L. Whatever the German could do the American in the P-38 could do better.

The Roll rate in the J-25, L was great and at higher speeds the best.

The P-38 also had a "Clover Leaf" manuver at low/slow speeds that would cut a circle up very efectivly.

Earlier models couldn't do everything the L could.

And of course the pilot made the difference in combat where the aircraft are as close as these. The P-38 just had more to work with.

[Lightning Guy]

The Ki-84 looks a lot better than the P-47. It is a much smaller aircraft and lacks the "fat gut" of the P-47.

[lesofprimus]

And it flew alot better too.....

[Lightning Guy]

I agree. The Ki-84 is my favorite of the Japanese fighters.

Originally Posted by plan_D

No it wasn't. The Spitfire was a better dogfighter than the Mustang. The Mustang had a range advantage over the Spitfire, that's all.

That is not true. The P-51 was, in most meaningful respects, faster than the Spitfire. It was more manuverable at very high speeds than the Spitfire. It had a better zoom climb than the Spitfire. It was (a little) tougher than the Spitfire. It was a better gunplatform than the Spitfire. And it had better visability than the Spitfire.

The Spitfire wins in acceleration, climb rate, and medium and low speed manuverability.

=S=

Lunatic

Originally Posted by Erich

I am a little surprised that the Dora 9 is doing so well in the polls with so few units really equipped with the bird.

The poll didn't ask about numbers produced. As I recall something around 1500 were produced but only a little more than half were deployed.

=S=

Lunatic

Originally Posted by Lightning Guy

The Ki-84 looks a lot better than the P-47. It is a much smaller aircraft and lacks the "fat gut" of the P-47.

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

And it flew alot better too.....

Hmmm....

...
Perdomo described what happened in his combat report:

I pushed the throttle into water injection with the prop pitch at about 2,700 rpm. As I gained on the Oscars, I placed my gyro sight on the last one and adjusted the sight diamonds on his wings. At this time the Oscars were flying a very loose vee. When I closed into firing range I gave him a burst and saw my bullets converge on his nose and cockpit. Something exploded in his engine and fire broke out. I was still shooting as he fell to the right.

After gaining his first kill, Perdomo went after the second Oscar:

I lined him up immediately on the second ship and began firing at about 30 degrees. I shot at this Oscar until parts flew off and fire broke out on the bottom cowling of his engine. I ceased firing when he rolled over slowly and dove straight into the ground and exploded.

He closed on the third Oscar:

I caught him in my fixed sight and led him as much as I could, firing all the way. He continued his spiral- turn about 180 degree until he was about 100 ft off the ground. Then he hit a high speed stall, because I saw his aircraft shudder, and it snapped him still tighter to the left and into the ground where he exploded like an oversized napalm bomb.

After shooting down the third Oscar, he headed back to town, where he saw the fire from his first kill. Almost simultaneously he spotted a parachute descending and identified the green-clad man below it as a Japanese pilot. He put his sights on him and passed by, rocking his wings. Perdomo them climbed to look for any other P-47's and encountered two Willow biplane trainers (Yokosuka Type 93 Intermediate Trainer K5Y) flying in formation. He after them and the Willows separated as Perdomo reported:

I picked the closet to me and started shooting. Flames broke out almost immediately. To slow my ship I crossed my controls and skidded. Them I shot more at him. This time I must have hit the pilot because the ship went into a spiral to the right and straight into the ground about 300 feet below.

After seeing the Willow explode. He tried to locate the other one, but it had escaped. He started to climb above the clouds, when three or four Oscars broke out above him and to the right. He turned into them and pointed his nose down, hoping they had not seen him. But at the last moment they pushed down on him. He shot under them, poured water injection on, and turned into the clouds. The Oscars made a half-hearted turn, but by them Perdomo was above and behind:

As I came in on these Oscars three of them turned to the left and one turned right I followed this single one and used my gyro sight. His only evasive maneuvers were turns. I shot at him in bursts until he flamed. He exploded when I pulled alongside because of the excessive speed. The mass of flames went into the ground.

He headed back to the city and the rest of the group. Over the airfield he saw two of the group’s P-47’s,chasing an Oscar that turned on the P-47’s. Perdomo dived on the Oscar, engaging it shooting until his ammo ran out. The Oscar turned on him, as he mentions in his report:

I saw a yellow-tailed P-47 out of the corner of my right eye and yelled him to shoot the Oscar off my tail………The P-47 I saw turned on the Oscar and began firing. He missed with the first burst, but clobbered him with the second. I saw the Oscar go straight in and explode. I believe the pilot of the P-47 to be Lt. Harry Steinshover.

This is confirmed in 2nd Lt. Harry M. Steinshover combat narrative. He had shot-down an Oscar, at the beginning of the fight, as he reported. After getting the first Oscar the following took place:

I pulled off the target and climbed to 3,000 ft to join my element leader. He (Perdomo) sighted an Oscar about 1,000 ft below us and dived for him. He opened up but ran out of ammunition. His speed carried him under the enemy plane. The Oscar started a turn to the left and my element leader broke right. The Oscar immediately made a sharp turn to the right and opened fire. I close to 1,000 ft and opened fire and the enemy plane started smoking. I fired at him all the way to the ground and he exploded.

By 1345 hours the 507th started the return to Ie Shima with elements landing about 1755 hours, an 8 hour, and 18 minute mission. In total the 507th claimed 20 enemy aircraft plus 2 probables and one Betty bomber on the ground, for the loss of one P-47N of the 464th flown by a pilot who had claimed 2 Oscars during the fight. He was shot-down and bailed out over the sea. He was picked up by the Japanese, and help prisioner at Keijo until the end of the war.

Major Jarman recalled how Perdomo’s claims were confirmed:

When we landed back at Ie Shima Perdomo shyly stated that he had destroyed five, including one biplane trainer type. Upon developing the gun camera film it was clearly proven that he had actually destroyed five aircraft including the biplane which no else had even seen.

FRANKS NOT OSCARS

It is interesting to note that the type of enemy fighters engaged by the 507th were actually the Nakajima Ki-84 Hayate code named Frank from the Japanese Army Air Force’s 22ndand 85thSentais. Both Units had been assigned to Kimpo airfield since May 1945.

The 85th Hiko Sentai had been formed since March 1941, and as a veteran unit had seen action in Manchuria and China, claiming the destruction of some 282 enemy aircraft for the loss of 73 pilots. The unit commander was Capt. Morio Nakamura, who had held the post since December 1944.

The 22nd Hiko Sentai was created in March 1944 and was the first Ki-84 unit in the JAAF. It has seen action in Central China, the Philippines and homeland defense, claiming 40 enemy aircraft destroyed and damaged, for the loss of 24 pilots. Its commanding officer was Major Ei-chi Kitajima, who had been appointed in June 1945.
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/perdomo/perdomo.htm

Admittedly these were P-47N's, but a late mode P-47D was just about as good. While rated at 2550 HP, Robert Johnson's P-47 was in fact pulling about 2700 HP, just 100 HP less than the N model, and the D weighed less.

Note that these were Frank's, the best that Japan had to offer, flown by two of their most experianced Sentai's.

=S=

Lunatic

[plan_D]

Better gun platform? How do you figure that one out then? Two 20mm and two .50 cal is just as good and more diverse than six .50s.