Best ETO fighter from 1939-1942

[Soren]

He's probably forgotten about this thread, he's got lots of work to do for his website.

About the Fw-190 vs the Spit, well I'd take the Fw-190 for the simple reason that at high speeds it was allot more maneuverable, and considering it could out-turn and out-climb a P-51 at low to medium alt it was a very competitive fighter.

The brilliant and flawless kommandogerät of the Fw-190 also gives it a great advantage as prop pitch, fuel mixture etc etc is all out of the pilots mind and taken care of to perfection.

According to the Germans the Fw-190 kept its dominance over the Spitfire till the end, the Bf-109's & esp. the Fw-190's racking up some VERY impressive tallies over the Channel in 43.

That having been said the Spitfire Mk.XIV was definitely superior to the Anton and a close equal to the Dora-9.

The Fw-190 Dora-9, Spitfire Mk.XIV & F4U-4 Corsair are the three best massed produced piston engined fighters of the war IMO.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Soren

The Fw-190 Dora-9, Spitfire Mk.XIV & F4U-4 Corsair are the three best massed produced piston engined fighters of the war IMO.

Have to agree with this.

PS apologies for the incorrect naming early in the thread

[Hop]

According to the Germans the Fw-190 kept its dominance over the Spitfire till the end, the Bf-109's & esp. the Fw-190's racking up some VERY impressive tallies over the Channel in 43.

Source?

[Hunter368]

I was wondering how long that comment would go unchallanged by some Brit.

LOL

[kool kitty89]

The only thing the Spit IX could do better than the 190A (of the same period) in maneuvering was in a turn, the 190 could dive and roll (especially) better, and climb was similar. Though the Spitfire started to gain an advantage above the 190's ~19,000 ft critical altitude and above 25,000 ft would have a clear advantage. (as did the Merlin P-51's) But dogfights would quickly descend to lower altitudes where the 190 would have an advantage.

[claidemore]

The Spitfire Mk IX and FW190A were equal in climb only in the early production of Mk IXs with the Merlin 61. With the Merlin 66 and 70, the Spitfire had a marked climb advantage over the 190's and indeed most fighters till the end of the war. Best climb rate for a 190 would be 3200+ft/min, best climb rate for a MkIX would be 4700+ ft/min. No comparison.

The MkIX was also much superior in the climbing combat turn compared to the 190, 190s would always stall if they tried to follow a Spit in that maneuver.

The 190 had a faster intial dive, but the Spitfires max dive speed was comparable, and MkIX pilots had no trouble catching up to 190s that attempted to escape by diving.

In a dogfight at low altitude vs the Spit, the 190 was very much at a disadvantage, since it's best maneuver, the half-roll and dive, would be removed from the equation as alt got lower. There are plenty of reports of 190's not recovering from dives.

Most of the 190s success against Spitfires was against MkVs where it had large perfromance advantages. Once the Mk IX was in combat, the balance changed and got progressively worse for the 190 pilots. In fact some channel Jagedgeschwaders like JG2 switched from their 190As to late model 109s, and eventually to Dora 9's. (what's with that number 9?)

I'm not saying the 190 was completely dominated and decimated, they were still formidible fighters, but they certainly never again enjoyed air superiority as they had in their first operational year.

[Soren]

Claidemore,

The FW-190 A-5 climbed at over 4,100 ft/min, and top SL speed was 570+ km/h, allot faster than the Spitfire Mk.IX. Hence the high tally the FW-190 acquired itself against the Spitfire over the Channel.

There are plenty of reports of 190's not recovering from dives.

LoL, like one or possibly two ?

Claidemore the FW-190 had the lightest and best harmonized controls of ANY WW2 fighter, being capable of far more aggressive rolls & pull outs than the Spitfire. Hence why the Split S maneuver was almost a foolproof escape maneuver for any 190 with a Spit on its tail, the Spitfire simply had no chance of following it.

Also you need to remember at which speeds the actual fighting was taking place, cause at these speeds the 190 was everybit as good a turn fighter as the Spitfire, hence why most German after action reports note Spitfires shot down in 'Kurvenkampf', directly translated turn or angles fighting.

and MkIX pilots had no trouble catching up to 190s that attempted to escape by diving.

That's definitely not true Claidemore! The FW-190 enjoyed a great advantage in dive acceleration and speed!

In short the FW-190A stayed superior to the Spitfire Mk.IX except in climb rate and low speed turn performance. Not that it matted since the Dora-9 saw service in 44 and was a far superior fighter to both.

[claidemore]

Originally Posted by Soren

Claidemore,

The FW-190 A-5 climbed at over 4,100 ft/min, and top SL speed was 570+ km/h, allot faster than the Spitfire Mk.IX. Hence the high tally the FW-190 acquired itself against the Spitfire over the Channel.

4100 is still less than 4700, and the 190 loses climb speed quickly as alt increases (compared to a Spitfire. Mk IX's are still climbing at over 2000ft/min at 30000ft!) Also the MkIX was superior to the 190As above 28,000ft in every respect, with a service ceiling 4000 feet higher.
With 25lbs boost the MkIX was 354-358 mph @ SL, exactly the same as the 190A-5, and still faster at other altitudes. As you know, RAF also started using Spitfire Mk XIIs, Typhoons and Tempests against the low level hit and run raids by FW190s cross-channel.


LoL, like one or possibly two ?

Like half the accounts in the two Canadian Spitfire books by Robert Bracken.

Claidemore the FW-190 had the lightest and best harmonized controls of ANY WW2 fighter, being capable of far more aggressive rolls & pull outs than the Spitfire. Hence why the Split S maneuver was almost a foolproof escape maneuver for any 190 with a Spit on its tail, the Spitfire simply had no chance of following it.

Yes, agreed, if it had enough height to do it without augering in.

But, we hear this argument a lot and it speaks volumes to me. The advantage of the 190 was in "escaping", a defensive attitude, not an offensive one.

Also you need to remember at which speeds the actual fighting was taking place, cause at these speeds the 190 was everybit as good a turn fighter as the Spitfire, hence why most German after action reports note Spitfires shot down in 'Kurvenkampf', directly translated turn or angles fighting.

Ditto for the Spit pilots.



That's definitely not true Claidemore! The FW-190 enjoyed a great advantage in dive acceleration and speed!

Great advantage in dive acceleration, slim advantage in dive speed. Trouble is, the ground is only so far away, and thats as far as you can dive. Once the 190 levels off, it starts to lose speed quickly. The Spit is still above it, and can maintain a shallow dive angle long enough to catch the 190. Not saying the 190s never got away, just that they didn't always get away. That's how the Spit 1s and Hurricanes often caught 109E's in BoB as well.

In short the FW-190A stayed superior to the Spitfire Mk.IX except in climb rate and low speed turn performance. Not that it matted since the Dora-9 saw service in 44 and was a far superior fighter to both.

There were plenty of other planes to fight the Dora, including Mk XIV Spits.

I don't know if any 190As shot down any MkXIV spits, but MkIXs definately got some long nosed 190s.

I liken the Spitfire Mk IX to the old saying, "God made all men equal, except for the Scots........... who he made just a wee bit better."

[Soren]

Claidemore,

The Spitfire Mk.IX boosted to +25 lbs/sq.in. didn't see service until late 44, and even then not many saw service. In 1943 when the FW-190 A-5 was in service it was much faster than the Spitfire Mk.IX then in service, and climb rate was similar.

If you want to compare late 1944 fighters we can do that as-well, as most German fighters by then were all over the Spitfire Mk.IX.

As for dive acceleration, again you're missing out. The FW-190 was ALLOT faster in a dive than the Spitfire, easily out-accelerating it and therefore hitting a higher speed in the end. If the Spitfire choose to do a shallow dive the 190 had successfully escaped.

As for 190's failing to pull out of a dive, well there are only a few incidents of this, and all where because of the pilot forgetting to trim back the incidence of their horizontal stabilizers, causing the a/c to nose over.

I'd like to the see the reports you talk of though..

Yes, agreed, if it had enough height to do it without augering in.

The 190 wouldn't need much height at all for that, infact at 450 km/h it would need just as much as the Spitfire and less as speed increases.

Like I said the FW-190 could do much more aggressive pull outs than the Spitfire, being capable of taking higher G loads and controls being much better harmonized.

And as for max dive speed, well the FW-190A was approved for 850 km/h (531.5 mph).

But, we hear this argument a lot and it speaks volumes to me. The advantage of the 190 was in "escaping", a defensive attitude, not an offensive one.

You've got to be kidding me!

The FW-190 was faster, dived faster, and was allot more maneuverable! It was a totally offensive type a/c, being more on the offensive against the Spitfire than vice versa as proven with the incredibly high tallies it achieved against it over the channel.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by claidemore

The Spitfire Mk IX and FW190A were equal in climb only in the early production of Mk IXs with the Merlin 61. With the Merlin 66 and 70, the Spitfire had a marked climb advantage over the 190's and indeed most fighters till the end of the war. Best climb rate for a 190 would be 3200+ft/min, best climb rate for a MkIX would be 4700+ ft/min. No comparison.

The MkIX was also much superior in the climbing combat turn compared to the 190, 190s would always stall if they tried to follow a Spit in that maneuver.

The 190 had a faster intial dive, but the Spitfires max dive speed was comparable, and MkIX pilots had no trouble catching up to 190s that attempted to escape by diving.

In a dogfight at low altitude vs the Spit, the 190 was very much at a disadvantage, since it's best maneuver, the half-roll and dive, would be removed from the equation as alt got lower. There are plenty of reports of 190's not recovering from dives.

Most of the 190s success against Spitfires was against MkVs where it had large perfromance advantages. Once the Mk IX was in combat, the balance changed and got progressively worse for the 190 pilots. In fact some channel Jagedgeschwaders like JG2 switched from their 190As to late model 109s, and eventually to Dora 9's. (what's with that number 9?)

I'm not saying the 190 was completely dominated and decimated, they were still formidible fighters, but they certainly never again enjoyed air superiority as they had in their first operational year.

Good post. The Spit IX outclimbed the 51B-5 with both the 1650-3 and 1650-7 in it. It was only with 44-1 fuel, the -7 and 75" boost that the 51B got 4380 fpm with full Gross weight and racks at 9680 pounds..

And the 51B out climbed and was faster than the Fw 190A-5 at SL, at 20,000 feet and far better at 30,000 feet. It turned with it and the Spit outturned the Mustang. It turned with the 109 and the Spit IX out turned the 51B, until high speed and altitude, then they were very close.

But, all those Fw 190s and 109s must have gone down to acts of God, because no Allied fighter could touch their performance..

[claidemore]

Hi Soren:
The max dive speed for FW190As, afaik, was 750kmh, not 850. What is your source for the 850kmh dive?

190s also reported heavy elevator forces in pullout at max speed dives, same as every other WWII fighter. Well harmonized controls don't give the plane any magical abilities in dive pullouts, it's still a mechanical & muscle powered control. I believe the Spitfire wing has a higher mach number as well, and the famous 'oversensitive' elevators would be an advantage in pullout.

I'd like to adress your comment about Spitfires stalling and flipping on their back. Something I'd never heard of outside of testing with dramatic shifts of CoG.

Pilot handbook for the Spit IX says: "At the stall either wing and the nose drop gently. Recovery is straightforward and easy."
Warning of a stall in all cases is felt in tail buffetting, from 10mph to 5 mph before the stall (depending on wing, clipped or standard).

Only in those few planes that had rear fuselage fuel tanks, and a corresponding shift in CoG, was there any mention of a 'flick' stall.

The 190 on the other hand, gave no warning of a stall, and was also prone to aileron reversal in tight turns. There are reports of poor performance in a loop as well.

I mis-spoke when responding to your comment about "one or two cases". I realize now that you were referring to 190s augering in, and my reference to Brackens books was about Spits pursuing diving 190s.

Here's a few accounts from Mike Williams site: (all my books are in storage which is really frustrating for me! )

I broke down and right and caught another FW as he commenced to dive away. At 14,000 ft. approx. I gave a burst of cannon and M/G, 400 yds range, hitting E/A along fuselage. Pieces fell off and E/A continued in straight dive nearly vertical. I followed E/A down to 5,000 ft. over Boulogne and saw him hit the deck just outside of Boulogne and explode and burn up. Returned to base at 0 ft.
1 FW 190 Destroyed.

The leading one then broke off and the rear one started to dive towards France, taking slight evasive action. The dive started at about 10,000 feet and I got many bursts from astern at ranges from 200 to 400 yards. I saw cannon strikes, and his tank burst. Then, after about another second, black smoke and flames poured from his tail. At 2,000 feet my ammunition gave out and I saw him slowly carry on his dive to the right, flaming and smoking, until he crashed in a field (This, I think, was just S.E. of St. Omer). I came back at zero feet.
1 FW 190 Destroyed.

I got a little in front of No. 1 and No. 2 and a little to the left. I got one E/A in my sight but although I had 500 m.p.h. on the clock, I closed in very slowly to 300 yards firing short bursts. It was a very difficult to get in a good deflection shot, as he was using his rudder very hard, and skidding from one side to the other, until I saw a vivid flash in his cockpit. The E/A then dived steeply down and I then realized that I was on the point of diving vertically into the saw and managed to pull out with nothing to spare. The E/A made no attempt to pull out and went straight in.

I got on the tail of one of them as it dived steeply to Port without taking any evasive action. I closed in to 300 yards and fired two or three short bursts from ten to fifteen degrees deflection. The E/A immediately burst into flames, making very little smoke

I positioned myself on the tail of this A/C who, when he saw me, pushed his stick forward and dived very steeply westwards down the coast. It was some time before I could get within firing range and there was 480 I.A.S. on my clock when I opened with a short burst from dead astern 200 yards

I instructed my section to engage these six enemy aircraft but just as I was within range they all dived steeply down. I followed my aircraft and opened fire from 250 yards with cannon and M/G. Several strikes were seen on his fuselage, wing roots and tail unit and he commenced to emit thick black smoke, as I broke away I saw at least one half of a wing break away.

I know the 190s had their successes too. Their biggest advantage over France until D-Day was the fact that they were operating in their own airspace, giving an overall tactical/situational advantage, similar to the Spits and Hurricanes during BoB with 109Es operating at max range.
But that tactical/situational advantage doesn't mean the plane itself was better. When you compare the advantages of the two planes against each other, the Spitfire has the edge, and will come out ahead in a greater variety of situations.
I agree that the 190 was a very good fighter (almost as good as a Spit! lol) , it has always been one of my favorites, and the two planes performance similarities and differences make for a great discussion.

[claidemore]

Originally Posted by drgondog

Good post. The Spit IX outclimbed the 51B-5 with both the 1650-3 and 1650-7 in it. It was only with 44-1 fuel, the -7 and 75" boost that the 51B got 4380 fpm with full Gross weight and racks at 9680 pounds..

And the 51B out climbed and was faster than the Fw 190A-5 at SL, at 20,000 feet and far better at 30,000 feet. It turned with it and the Spit outturned the Mustang. It turned with the 109 and the Spit IX out turned the 51B, until high speed and altitude, then they were very close.

..

Agree completely.
An now that you mention Mustangs, the Mustang 1s were operating during the period covered by this thread, which I beleive were faster than the 190 @ SL and were used in the same type of role as the Jabo 190s. They flew those same Mustang 1s from 41 to 44, and didn't have a lot of losses. Thats one of the unsung heros of the war IMO.

[Soren]

Claidemore,

Read the FW-190A-5 manual, there the max permitted dive speed is listed, 850 km/h (531.5 mph).

As for your quotes, NONE of them are a case of the 190 failing to pull out of the dive because of high elevator forces, they were ALL shot down, there's a BIG difference.

At high speeds the FW-190 had the lightest and best harmonized controls of any WW2, infact the controls became almost dangerously light at very high speeds, there being a great risk of he pilot overstressing the airframe in tight pull outs, and the FW-190's wings could take over 12 G's!

Furthermore the 190 gave plenty of warning of the stall, however if the ailerons were improperly adjusted aileron reversal would occur which resulted in premature stalls in turns causing dramatically poorer turn performance. Hence the poor results the US Navy got with their captured A-5, as it suffered from improperly adjusted ailerons, as did Faber's A-3.

The later captured FW-190 Jabo featured properly adjusted ailerons and performed much better than previously captured examples, turning with a Mustang III, and this is despite it being a heavilily armored & equipped Jabo!

With properly adjusted ailerons the FW-190 gave plenty of warning of the stall and was a very potent turn fighter, out-turning the Mustang at low to medium altitudes and being capable of following a Spitfire through the first 145 degrees. That coupled with its much superior roll rate, speed & dive acceleration made it a better fighter than the Spitfire and allowed it acquire itself a very high Kill/loss ratio against it over the channel from 1942 and onwards.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by drgondog

It turned with the 109 and the Spit IX out turned the 51B, until high speed and altitude, then they were very close.

Bill you know as well as I that the P-51B wasn't even close to the Bf-109 in terms of turn performance.

Also the Bf-109 was everybit as good a turn fighter as the Spitfire, the 109 G.2 and Spit IX being close equals in 42 & 43.

The FW-190 A-5 was faster, dive quicker and was more maneuverable than both, hence its huge success against the Spitfire.

The P-51B was more of a match for the 190, featuring excellent speed at all altitudes and good high speed control.

But, all those Fw 190s and 109s must have gone down to acts of God, because no Allied fighter could touch their performance..

Come on Bill, that's unnecessary and completely useless. I like it better when you hold your composure and commit yourself to a serious debate.

[claidemore]

Hi Soren,

As much as I enjoy debating with you on this topic, I enjoy reasearching and reading manuals even more!

I have the 190A5 manual, in German (pdf). Since I'm a mono-lingual knuckle dragger, I haven't even attempted to translate it and I'm not sure how to go about translating a pdf with an online translater. (I did tranlate the Yak3 manual from Russian, but it was html, so I could cut and paste it easily)

If there is no english version out there, wouldn't it be cool if some fluent german speaking guy could translate it for us and post it here on these forums?

Claidemore