Best ETO fighter from 1939-1942

[Hunter368]

Wow Bill,

I have to say your post has surprised me. I did not intend to offend anyone with my post. Even rereading it looking for that......I can't see how I offended you in anyway.

Hell I even got a PM from a very respected member of the forum thanking me for my attempt of getting this "debate" back on course, less all the snide remarks from both you and Soren. Shows you how bad this "debate" has gotten.

The whole point of my post was to get you and Soren to debate based on facts alone in a respectful way.......to the benefit of us all. You both make yourselves look bad the way you are doing it.

Instead you took it as me taking shots at you (Soren) when I was not. I was not and cannot lecture to you on aerodynamics, you know far more on the subject then I.

I can debate with you facts, third party examples, history etc. But that was not my intention. I am trying to get this debate back from insults to facts. Notice I have not posted any comment here other then my attempt to get rid of useless comments and get back to facts.

Not to mention you took comments from my first post twisted them into things I never said. You claim you never indulged in the same thing as Soren, when you have. You both were doing it.

I am not trying to turn this into an arguement, I respect your knowledge a great deal, I truely do. But you lose your cool quickly, then your "debating" skill slips into snide remarks.

Example: Please post where I said (in my first post) "Bill you claim the P-51 was the wonder plane", I never said that. Reread my post, I never said any such thing. You lost your cool and assumed much in my post which was untrue.

I am not trying to get involved in your debate with Soren. I am just trying to get your debate with Soren clearer for us all to read and enjoy (less all the BS).

Now if your still offended by my first post or this one, PM me if you want and I will explain more. Not trying to turn this into a pissing match with you, its not my style. But post again like the last one and I will respond.

Soren and Bill you both need to relax and take a deep breath. Walk away from the forum for a day or so and chill out.

[Soren]

This keeps getting mentioned but HOP did a posting giving more details that belies this claim.
The question I have asked before on this is a simple one. 'If the secret to dominating the RAF SPitfires in 1940 was training new pilots to fly through the deployment of the slats. Why didn't they? Its simple to do and in the Me108 they had the ideal trainer.

As has been explained the Emil suffered from its slats jamming in turns, making pilots vary about the slats and unwilling to attempt to push the a/c beyond slat deployment, fearing the a/c was on the verge of a stall.

Günther Rall was nearly killed in an Emil as one of the slats jammed in a turn, throwing the a/c into a vicous spin, fortunatly he recovered, but he never tried to push the 109 that far again.

The problem with the LE slats was however solved with the introduction of the F series, a new roller design ensuring smooth operation of the slats, and most new pilots were then ofcourse instructed to push the 109 to the limit in turns from then on, there being nothing to be afraid of anymore. But the point is that the Britih test pilots and some of the old 109 jocks didn't know about this and continued to be vary about the slats, Rall never even attempted to push the a/c that far having nearly died once doing so, also he didn't have to seeing he had perfected his own tactics during the BoB which proved very effective.

As Dave Southwood puts it, having flown Black 6:
"When these deploy at low speeds or in a turn, a 'clunk' can be heard and felt, but there is no disturbance to the aircraft about any axis. I understand that the Bf109E rolled violently as the slats deployed, and I am curious to know the difference to the Gustav that caused this"

A British pilot having either previous flown the Emil, or never flown a 109 before, would therefore naturally be vary about the slats and not push past slats deployment, somthing which is made clear by Leykauf & Wolfrum and the comments made in the AFDU report.

And as for the Bf-108 being used as a trainer, well AFAIK this wasn't the primary trainer for LW fighter pilots. Furthermore the Bf-108 features the same slats as the Emil, so even if some pilots had trained in this type they'd still have high chance of experiencing that bad & very dangerous habbit of the slats jamming in turns.

It was all about getting past that fear though as Wolfrum & Leykauf both explain, both having successfully out-turned and shot down quite a few Spitfires.

[Soren]

Hunter,

That's the way it always is with Bill, he blows into a frenzy of insults everytime someone talks negatively about his precious Mustang, ignoring all the facts put before him, making it impossible to have a serious debate with him.

As long as he refuses to realize the facts we can't debate this any further with him.

[FLYBOYJ]

Folks - let get back to being a little civil here - I don't want to close this thread but will do so if things continue to get heated.

[evangilder]

This has gotten WAY out of hand. I will go one further and state that the next snide comment will result in closing of this thread, I don't care WHO it is from.

[Juha]

Soren
"It was all about getting past that fear though as Wolfrum & Leykauf both explain, both having successfully out-turned and shot down quite a few Spitfires."

Leykauf claimed 3 Spitfires and IIRC Wolfrum's all claims were on Eastern Front, so what is your definition to "quite a few"?

Juha

[claidemore]

A man once said: The secret to success is to leave two or three things unsaid every day.

I really don't want to see this thread get locked, it's far and away my favorite and I feel like I'm learning something.

claidemore

[Soren]

Erwin Leykauf shot down six Spitfires during the BoB Juha, as he said himself.

Three passed confirmation with the OKL with another two Hurricanes shot down.

[Juha]

Soren
"Erwin Leykauf shot down six Spitfires during the BoB Juha, as he said himself."

How You know that he shot down 6 Spits? Have you done some research on subject or is that only your belief?

Juha

[pbfoot]

I think saying someone bagged an opponent by outurning him is a little misleading , if both aircraft started manouvering at the same time from the same position and energy level would be the only was to base the abilities of both aircraft. then toss into the mix capabilities of the pilot and the maintainence of the aircraft

[Hunter368]

Very good point PB and how often does that actually happen in combat? Almost never is the answer.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Soren

As has been explained the Emil suffered from its slats jamming in turns, making pilots vary about the slats and unwilling to attempt to push the a/c beyond slat deployment, fearing the a/c was on the verge of a stall.

I have heard this quite often but never any evidence. The reason why I have this question is that the Me108 had the same slats and if the the problem was common then it would have been dealt with before the war started. Certainly it would have been looked at and improved. Don't get me wrong I am not saying that it didn't happen but I do not believe that it was common.

The problem with the LE slats was however solved with the introduction of the F series, a new roller design ensuring smooth operation of the slats, and most new pilots were then ofcourse instructed to push the 109 to the limit in turns from then on, there being nothing to be afraid of anymore. But the point is that the Britih test pilots and some of the old 109 jocks didn't know about this and continued to be vary about the slats, Rall never even attempted to push the a/c that far having nearly died once doing so, also he didn't have to seeing he had perfected his own tactics during the BoB which proved very effective.

The comment about the British test pilots not pushing them through the envelope has been addressed a number of times. You have read those postings and believe that point should be dropped.

A British pilot having either previous flown the Emil, or never flown a 109 before, would therefore naturally be vary about the slats and not push past slats deployment, somthing which is made clear by Leykauf & Wolfrum and the comments made in the AFDU report.

The experience of Leykauf and Wolfrun has been covered, in fact their lack of experience against Spitfires would be more accurate.

And as for the Bf-108 being used as a trainer, well AFAIK this wasn't the primary trainer for LW fighter pilots. Furthermore the Bf-108 features the same slats as the Emil, so even if some pilots had trained in this type they'd still have high chance of experiencing that bad & very dangerous habbit of the slats jamming in turns.

This I don't understand. In the 109myths site which I know you are aware of, a number of times visiting pilots mention that they were given a flight in a Me108 precisely to give them experience on the use of slats.
I know the 108 wasn't a primary trainer but if the use of the slats made the sort of difference which is claimed, then its use as a conversion trainer has so much logic, that I am confident it would have been used.

The best way to train a pilot is to let them experience their fears and realise that they are exagerated.

[pbfoot]

What was the problem with the slats , was in not included in the training of the aircrew, were the groundcrew not able to maintain them . Having looked at the things and played with them I wonder why the LW was unable to use or maintain them

[Soren]

Originally Posted by Juha

Soren
"Erwin Leykauf shot down six Spitfires during the BoB Juha, as he said himself."

How You know that he shot down 6 Spits? Have you done some research on subject or is that only your belief?

Juha

My belief ??? Its what the man says himelf Juha, it has nothing to do with my belief!

Geeez..

[kool kitty89]

Why did't they fix the problem of slats on the Bf 108 like they did on the 109F?