Best ETO fighter from 1939-1942

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Even with those upgrades the Fw-190 still was superior to any Hurricane. It was a different class of aircraft. The Hurricane was outdated by Fw-190 standards. When it came out it was the finest fighter in service in the world and it never left being in the top.

[Gnomey]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Even with those upgrades the Fw-190 still was superior to any Hurricane. It was a different class of aircraft. The Hurricane was outdated by Fw-190 standards. When it came out it was the finest fighter in service in the world and it never left being in the top.

Very true Alder, I agree.

[102first_hussars]

But lets remember the timeline, the FW190 though made its appearance in North Africa in 42, it was small, and through this timeline 39-42 the Hurricane had the best service record, it served on all fronts, it was a good all around fighter, and the FW-190 dindnt go into mass production until 1943, and by that time the new spitfires, P47 thunderbolts, and P38Js had taken over for the Hurricane, the Battle of Britain was the ultimate test of who had the best airforce, Britain won and the majority of the aircraft used by the RAF and its Colonies were Hurricanes.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The Fw-190A first appeared in combat against the allies in 1941 not in 1942 and over France not N. Afrika. Where do you get your information from?

The British Royal Air Force (RAF) first encountered the FW-190A-1 in air combat over the coast of northern France in September 1941. The new German aircraft was more than a match for the Spitfire V. British intelligence was initially puzzled by reports of the new German fighter, with some speculation that the type might actually be a captured French Curtiss Hawk 75 or the Bloch 151 fighter, both of which were radial-engine machines with a vague resemblance to the FW-190. By the end of the year, the British had no doubt that they were up against something much more formidable.
www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=1155

And who cares about timelines or what not. The Fw-190 was much better than the Hurricane, any varient period. They way you are coming up with your assumption is like saying that the Sopwith Camel is better than the P-51D because the Sopwith Camel did more in 1918 than the P-51D did in the whole war.

The BoB did not really prove who had a better airforce. The Germans lost because they made very very very dumb mistakes like a change in tactics and what not.

[Parmigiano]

Originally Posted by 102first_hussars

carpenoctem1689

THE ENGINE WAS REPLACED WITH THE ROLLS ROYCE MERLIN V-12 ENGINE PROVIDING A BONE SHATTERING 1800HP AND NOT TO MENTION, THE HURRICANE HAD FUEL INJECTION WHILE THE FW-190 WAS STILL USING A CARBORATOR MEANING THE 190 COULDNT DO A STRAIGHT DIVE WHICH AT THE TIME WAS THE MOST EFFECTIVE EVASIVE MANOUVER. SO IF THE 190 POINTED HIS NOSE DOWN TOO FAR THE ENGINE WOULD SHUT OFF, HENSE IN A COMBAT SITUATION SOURKRAUT WAS SO SCREWD.

Where did you found documentation about a 1800hp- fuel injection Merlin in 1942? Never heard of a Merlin with fuel injection until very late in the war, and I am not sure it went into production.
I never heard about it, nor that it was fitted on a hurri. Also I never heard/read that the 190 had engine cut problems in dive, no matter how steep.

What I know is that RR was faithful to carburettors because they believed that the lower temp of the mix was offsetting the advanytages of the injection.

It reminds the story of the early merlins vs DB601 with the name changed!





'

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by 102first_hussars

carpenoctem1689


THE ENGINE WAS REPLACED WITH THE ROLLS ROYCE MERLIN V-12 ENGINE PROVIDING A BONE SHATTERING 1800HP AND NOT TO MENTION, THE HURRICANE HAD FUEL INJECTION WHILE THE FW-190 WAS STILL USING A CARBORATOR MEANING THE 190 COULDNT DO A STRAIGHT DIVE WHICH AT THE TIME WAS THE MOST EFFECTIVE EVASIVE MANOUVER. SO IF THE 190 POINTED HIS NOSE DOWN TOO FAR THE ENGINE WOULD SHUT OFF, HENSE IN A COMBAT SITUATION SOURKRAUT WAS SO SCREWD.

I think you're a little off the mark.....

The most powerful engine the Hurricane had was the Merlin 32 that produced 1645 hp and these were on the Mark Vs.

The BMW 801 used on the FW-190 A8 featured a pressure carburetor. This works like a fuel injection unit except an intake manifold is still used. What you describe is typical of early Spitfires and Hurricanes.....

So tell me, where did you read about all this?!?

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yeap same here I have not heard of Fw-190s engines just quitting because they were in a dive. A Fw-190 would outdive a Hurricane anyhow. Hell the BMW-801s were very good engines. Not the best but very robust and good.

[FLYBOYJ]

I've posted this before....

The BMW 801D-2 was fed by methanol-water injection. Most revolutionary however, was the hydraulic-electric 'brain' unit, operated by a single control which was the pilot's throttle lever. It automatically adjusted fuel flow, mixture strength, propeller pitch setting and ignition timing. It also cut in a second stage of the supercharger at the correct altitude. The pilot could, if required, manually set the propeller pitch without altering any of the other settings.

Oh - I was wrong about the pressure carb - the -801 had a FUEL INJECTION PUMP!!!! THE ENGINE COULD OPERATE IN ANY ATITUDE!!!! See the link for additional information.....

http://cip.physik.uni-wuerzburg.de/~...c9-2106US.html

What about the -190s engine shutting off?!?!?

[carpenoctem1689]

I dont know what you were talking about with a hurricane having an 1800hp engine, i dont even know if a hurricane prototype ever had such HP, much less any production aircraft. I also have never heard of a 190s engine cutting out in a dive, only that the engine overheated early on, and some fume exhaust leakage, but that was also fixed. And the reason the hurricane was so important was because it was simply the most available when it was needed, not that it was an outstanding aircraft, yes it was good in several roles, of fighter, and ground attack, but the 190 was better in every conceivable role.

[wmaxt]

Originally Posted by CurzonDax

For the ETO I disagree. While it was a great aircraft it was better suited for the PTO. There were plenty of aircraft in the ETO that were just as good as a P-38.

I agree. Especially with the aircraft that would be available within a year such as P-47 and P-51s. But I still love all that concentrated firepower. Still, again and some can correct me on this, wasn't the Beaufighter also more effective in warmer climates such as Africa, the Med, PTO, and Asia-Burma.

:{)[/quote]

The P-38L was available at the same time as the P-47D/P-51D were available in the ETO and was superior to both and had none of the problems that were supposedly in the early models remained. The P-38s kill rate was twice the P-51s which was ahead of the P-47. Further the P-38s record was achieved with green planes, green pilots, green ground crew, insuffient support, machanical losses against experienced German pilots and 10:1 P-38 odds NONE of which the P-51/P-47s had to deal with.

Several sources claim 20:1 P-38 for the L models fighting in the same conditions in the ETO with the P-51D/P-47Ds, and even without Ls the MTO rate was 6:1 P-38.

Also the decision by Doolittle was for logistical reasons not performance, Warren Bodie summarizes the interview in his book P-38. The P-51 had 2 factories and supplied 2 times the planes so they concentrated them in the ETO. Many sources contend P-38 was wanted over the P-51/P-47 everywhere else (esp the Pacific).

In '39 through '42 the Bf-109 has to be considered with the Spit V, Fw190A, and P-38 with the P-40 and Hurricane close behind too. The best plane in this group is who is the best pilot/best mission. Long range escort was absolutly the P-38, the heavest bomb load was the P-38 (3,200lbs), high cover was P-38 (and cold fingers) and the P-38 could mix it up on ~equal terms with the others. The ETO, and its sustained very high altitude, was not involved at this time.

If you choose something else thats fine and your choice, but if you do a little research, I don't think it will be on the actual performance record of the P-38, early or late.

Try this site for a start: http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/index.html There are 5 articals on the P-38 several are titled as Der Gabelscgwanz Teufel.

wmaxt

[102first_hussars]

K Im Back, sorry about the false apects of both planes, I got the info mixed up, the info was between the Me-109/Spitfire.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Okay and what are you still talking about then. The Bf-109 first saw combat in the Spanish Civil War and the Bf-109E were used in Poland in 1939. The Germans were already using Bf-109F's in 1942 and in N. Afrika.

Also a Bf-109 were not stall its engine if it were in a dive or climb either. That problem was actually in the early Hurricanes and Spitfires I believe. The 109 used fuel injection.

[Gnomey]

Correct Alder the early Spits and Hurricanes could not do a straight dive as their engines cut out (no fuel injection), they had to do a half-roll into dive sort of thing to achieve a dive giving the chased plane (generally a 109) a huge advantage which German pilots used against the British. The problem was fixed in later marks of Spits and Hurricanes but not sure from which marks.

[CurzonDax]

The P-38L was available at the same time as the P-47D/P-51D were available in the ETO and was superior to both and had none of the problems that were supposedly in the early models remained. The P-38s kill rate was twice the P-51s which was ahead of the P-47. Further the P-38s record was achieved with green planes, green pilots, green ground crew, insuffient support, machanical losses against experienced German pilots and 10:1 P-38 odds NONE of which the P-51/P-47s had to deal with.

Several sources claim 20:1 P-38 for the L models fighting in the same conditions in the ETO with the P-51D/P-47Ds, and even without Ls the MTO rate was 6:1 P-38.

In '39 through '42 the Bf-109 has to be considered with the Spit V, Fw190A, and P-38 with the P-40 and Hurricane close behind too. The best plane in this group is who is the best pilot/best mission. Long range escort was absolutly the P-38, the heavest bomb load was the P-38 (3,200lbs), high cover was P-38 (and cold fingers) and the P-38 could mix it up on ~equal terms with the others. The ETO, and its sustained very high altitude, was not involved at this time.[/quote]

HORRAY!!!!!! YIPPPIE!!!!! Someone has come to the defense of the USAAF. By the way get off my brain cell with all this info for I probably looked that the same sources exept I also looked in Martin Caidin's Forked Tailed Devil.

:{)

[syscom3]

Since the subject of the thread is 1939-1942, I dont think we need to discuss what the P38 was doing after Jan 1 1943.