Best guns of WW2

[Soren]

Originally Posted by drgondog

We are close, Soren - and I think personal preference, without great distinction on performance, is a separator.

I choose the 10.5cm LeFH 18/40 over the 10.5cm M2 because it possesses a longer range & according to reports better accuracy than the M2 howitzer. I choose the 17.3cm Kanone 18 over the 15.5cm Long Tom for roughly the same reasons and because the Kanone 18 fires a more potent shell further while hthe weight of the two guns are quite similar.

I like the StG 44 as a great design but do not classify the weapon as a 'battle' rifle, nor would I have a separate category for 'bolt action'

The StG44 can be considered a battle rifle as its effective range is beyond 700m at which range steel helmets were easily penetrated, and the fact that it can be fired controllably at full automatic (500rpm) makes for alot of firepower.

The reason the MP-40 is more accurate than the Thompson is because its far more controllable at full automatic fire, the MP-40 is infact one of the most controllable SMG's on full auto even to this day. And when I say that its debatable wether the .45 ACP packs a bigger punch than the 9mm arabellum it is because the KE of the 9mm is infact higher, giving the 9mm parabellum better penetration capability. In terms of stopping power with expanding bullet the .45 ACP is the best, hence the SOCOM reports, there's simply more surface to immediately dump the energy of the round inside the target. There's no difference between a .45 ACP FMJ bullet and 9mm FMJ bullet in terms of stopping power, the 9mm just possesses slightly better penetration power.

If there is an 'asault rifle' category then the StG 44 is hands down over the M-2 Carbine, but in retrospect I lump the 44 in with Thompson and Mp-40 and give it the edge there also.

The M-2 Carbine doesn't qualify as an assaukt rifle though, its round isn't intermediate and features far poorer ballistics than the 7.92x33mm Kurz round, plus the M-2 Carbine couldn't fire full automatic. You'll have to consider that the StG44 fires a 8.1 g FMJ Spitzer bullet at 686 m/s while the M-2 Carbine fires a 7 g FMJ round nosed bullet at 580 m/s.

Last, I would go with the 1911A1 for personal sidearm. The Browning 9mm Hi Power and P-38 would be close seconds for me.

Very understandable. Though I would personally prefer the Belgian Fabrique Nationale (FN) Browning "High Power" over the M1911A1.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Soren

I choose the 10.5cm LeFH 18/40 over the 10.5cm M2 because it possesses a longer range & according to reports better accuracy than the M2 howitzer. I choose the 17.3cm Kanone 18 over the 15.5cm Long Tom for roughly the same reasons and because the Kanone 18 fires a more potent shell further while hthe weight of the two guns are quite similar.

Always the question of 'reports' - I'm willing to be educated - what reports?

The StG44 can be considered a battle rifle as its effective range is beyond 700m at which range steel helmets were easily penetrated, and the fact that it can be fired controllably at full automatic (500rpm) makes for alot of firepower.

Great weapon - not considered a 'battle rifle' in WWII even thogh it would have been a good 'single choice' to arm everyone except snipers... but it is a matter of semantics and not worth a big argument over

The reason the MP-40 is more accurate than the Thompson is because its far more controllable at full automatic fire, the MP-40 is infact one of the most controllable SMG's on full auto even to this day.

I really don't have a problem with your controllable thesis. I fired a lot of roounds through the Thompson - like it but have to shoot short bursts to control it. But it is controllable that way

And when I say that its debatable wether the .45 ACP packs a bigger punch than the 9mm arabellum it is because the KE of the 9mm is infact higher, giving the 9mm parabellum better penetration capability. In terms of stopping power with expanding bullet the .45 ACP is the best, hence the SOCOM reports, there's simply more surface to immediately dump the energy of the round inside the target. There's no difference between a .45 ACP FMJ bullet and 9mm FMJ bullet in terms of stopping power, the 9mm just possesses slightly better penetration power.

The sectional density and 100gr extra makes a huge difference in stopping power..the KE of the 9mm was slightly higher because of velocity but too much civilian data on 'killing power' distinctions between the two to consider 9mm 'equivalent'. In FBI crime statistics of military rounds, the .45 is a clear winner with no close second

The M-2 Carbine doesn't qualify as an assaukt rifle though, its round isn't intermediate and features far poorer ballistics than the 7.92x33mm Kurz round, plus the M-2 Carbine couldn't fire full automatic. You'll have to consider that the StG44 fires a 8.1 g FMJ Spitzer bullet at 686 m/s while the M-2 Carbine fires a 7 g FMJ round nosed bullet at 580 m/s.

The StG 44 far superior to M-2 but it had capability of selective fire - semi and full auto... which was different from M-1 Carbine. The M-1 was originally thought of as a replacement for the 45 1911A1.

Very understandable. Though I would personally prefer the Belgian Fabrique Nationale (FN) Browning "High Power" over the M1911A1.

A matter of choice - I still like the .45 ACP, and today the .40 S&W would be second with the 158gr Hydro shock - I just don't like the 9mm. How much experience do you have with the 1911A1?

[Soren]

The M-2 did feature selective fire, I was thinking of the M-1 Carbine, but the M-2 didn't arrive until 1945 and I'm pretty confident it didn't see action in the ETO.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Soren

The M-2 did feature selective fire, I was thinking of the M-1 Carbine, but the M-2 didn't arrive until 1945 and I'm pretty confident it didn't see action in the ETO.

It was introduced in Oct 1944 and replaced the M-1 Carbines issued to US Airborne troops.. I don't think either 82nd or 101st had them at the Bulge but they did on the 24 March, 1945 Rhine jump. It saw service with USMC and USA all during 1945 in PTO.

Irrelevant - it was designed more to replace the Thompson, the M3 and the M-1 Carbine. It was found to jam in extreme cold weather in Korea but worked well in Viet Nam. It had a MV of 600m/s with a 110 grain bullet and a cyclic rate of 850 rpm. More like an Mp40 with the collapsible stock

From an accuracy standpoint, in semi auto, I had an M-1 Carbine that would group 4 inches at 200 yards with 5 shot groups but I bedded it and polished the sear to get a 4 pound trigger pull. When the AR-15 became available for civilian use I got rid of the M-1.

I would choose an StG 44 every day

[Soren]

Sorry I forgot to answer your question.

Yes I have plenty of experience firing the M1911A-1, a very nice but abit heavy sidearm (Heavy as in by contrast to other sidearms) The P-38 is also a very nice sidearm, very reliable and accurate. The Luger, well haven't shot it many times but the times I did it performed beautifully, being very comfortable to aim and shoot with, and pretty darn accurate - nt sure where the rumor that it was unreliable comes from, according to veterans it never jammed, not even in extreme cold (Most likely because it was always very well wrapped up when carried)

The Howitzer report is on the way, its from an allied intelligence bullitin where they interviewed US troopers at the front.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Soren

Sorry I forgot to answer your question.

Yes I have plenty of experience firing the M1911A-1, a very nice but abit heavy sidearm (Heavy as in by contrast to other sidearms) The P-38 is also a very nice sidearm, very reliable and accurate. The Luger, well haven't shot it many times but the times I did it performed beautifully, being very comfortable to aim and shoot with, and pretty darn accurate - nt sure where the rumor that it was unreliable comes from, according to veterans it never jammed, not even in extreme cold (Most likely because it was always very well wrapped up when carried)

The Howitzer report is on the way, its from an allied intelligence bullitin where they interviewed US troopers at the front.

I never found a Luger un relaiable with commercial factory ammo but never fired it with military ball.. I liked the slight extra heft of the 1911A1 - firing 230 gr ball in that weight was easy.

Thanks for the Howitzer report - does it have a 'side by side' comparison?

[Soren]

Haven't had much success in finding the howitzer report, simply haven't had enough time, but you can find it on this site: Lone Sentry: Photographs, Documents, and Research on World War II

[drgondog]

I'll check it out. Thanks. Have a great Octoberfest

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by drgondog

I never found a Luger un relaiable with commercial factory ammo but never fired it with military ball.. I liked the slight extra heft of the 1911A1 - firing 230 gr ball in that weight was easy.

The Luger's main problem seems to be the fact that it was expensive to manufacture - a dang sidearm and yet it cost about as much as a standard issue Mauser rifle. Never fired it myself (for legal reasons, it's rather difficult to get live guns here), but got a replica loooong time ago and it's simply the most 'natural' gun I have ever had in mind hand. Perfect grip, great balancing.

Not sure about reliability, all semiautos I've handled are very sensitive to ammunition. It has a rather unusual mechanism, but I guess if it worked in the WW1 trenches, it worked everywhere, not to mention it's the 9mm itself was tailored for it and not vica versa!

[mkloby]

I have some personal experience with an M2 in an exercise as a FO. The howitzer firing was about 8 clicks away, as I recall. The target I was calling for fire on was an old tank hulk about 1000-1500m from me. The first fire I called in landed close, slightly short, but within the effective casualty radius. I adjusted the fire and seconds later there were 105s raining down within feet, all around the hulk.

How's that for a report of the M2's accuracy.

[Kurfürst]

Within feet, 8 clicks away..?

Unlikely for anyone who had seen an actual range&ballistic table for howitzers if you ask me.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by drgondog

I'll check it out. Thanks. Have a great Octoberfest

Thanks Bill, but I'm not from Germany


Kurfürst,

I agree completely, the Luger is a very well balanced pistol with a great grip and that was also the very first thing I noticed about it - it makes it very comfortable to shoot with.

mkloby,

There's no doubt that the M2 was an accurate howitzer, most ww2 howitzers are, however take a look on the website I linked, there US troopers explain how the Germans would blow small & narrow roads to pieces with just one or two artillery pieces, not a single shell landing outside of the small & narrow road. One soldier makes the following remark: "On the other hand, we were impressed with the accuracy of German field artillery. I've seen a 150-mm battery concentration hit a crossroads so consistently that engineers had to be called on to make it passable for a 2 1/2-ton truck. As far as thoroughness goes, the Germans get more out of a round than the devil himself gets on a lump of coal."

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

Within feet, 8 clicks away..?

Unlikely for anyone who had seen an actual range&ballistic table for howitzers if you ask me.

Well he is talking from experience. He was the one calling it in.

[mkloby]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

Within feet, 8 clicks away..?

Unlikely for anyone who had seen an actual range&ballistic table for howitzers if you ask me.

Seriously Kurfürst? Well, with that kind of response - what else can I say. You're right - I concede. I completely made that story up. You're book knowledge is superior to my actual experience. I'm sorry I questioned your numbers.

Originally Posted by Soren

mkloby,

There's no doubt that the M2 was an accurate howitzer, most ww2 howitzers are, however take a look on the website I linked, there US troopers explain how the Germans would blow small & narrow roads to pieces with just one or two artillery pieces, not a single shell landing outside of the small & narrow road. One soldier makes the following remark: "On the other hand, we were impressed with the accuracy of German field artillery. I've seen a 150-mm battery concentration hit a crossroads so consistently that engineers had to be called on to make it passable for a 2 1/2-ton truck. As far as thoroughness goes, the Germans get more out of a round than the devil himself gets on a lump of coal."

I do believe it based off of my limited experience with field artillery. I will check it out when I get time later.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Soren

Thanks Bill, but I'm not from Germany

Neither am I but I haven't missed too many in the last 30 years.. We usually try to get to Munich and Madrid this time of the year but missing this year.