Best Jet of the War?

Originally Posted by plan_D

You try firing the M1 Garand effectively while running, and you'll see they're in the same trouble. The Garand, as all rifles in those days, kicked like a mule - you aren't going to be getting accurate shots off while running with anything. And the Brits (starting with the Chindits) could fire the Bren from the hip, if they really need a looney running and shooting randomly. In the jungles, it was required.

I have an Enfield, an M1 Carbine, and an M1 Garand. Yes the M1 kicks hard, and I never meant you could actually fire it "while running". My point is you can easily run with it, take up a position, fire off 2-3 rounds, and then run to a new position, and fire again. You cannot do that with the Enfield.

Also, when operting the enfield, each time you fire you must then operate the bolt, then reaquire the target and take your next shot, then operate the bolt, reaquire the target.... With the M1 you can fire, fire, fire. Target aquisition time is tremendously lower.

=S=

Lunatic

Originally Posted by plan_D

Thank you for pointing out the huge economic base that everyone already knows that America had. Which is why it was able to carry out the war, because of its economy - not its technological superiority.

If you want to argue with the world that the Germans weren't technically superior, be my guest but you're going to be beaten at every corner.

Really? All I have to that say is:

1) A-bomb

2) VT fuse

3) Battleships (especially the fire control systems)

4) Code breaking computers

5) A working turbo-supercharger

All technologically beyond the Germans.

Originally Posted by plan_D

The M1 Garand, what's so good about that? The Germans had the Stg. 44.

A handful of them late in the war. Meanwhile, almost every US infantryman in WWII carried an M1 Garand. It was a huge improvement over bolt action rifels.

Originally Posted by plan_D

The German aircraft not so good? Is that why American bombers were being blown out of the sky, left, right and center throughout the war? Even when they had fighter escort? The Fw-190 could dogfight better than all the American aircraft, except the P-38 in certain situations.

And just which German bombers were better than US bombers? The fact is that any bombers were easy for fighters to "blow out of the sky".

As for the FW-190, it was about an even match for a P-51 or late model P-47, and certainly outclassed by the F4U-4. Just how do you come up with this?

Originally Posted by plan_D

The Rockets were not a waste of time, they were given the go ahead too late. They could have been ready by 1942, if full funding was given. You think the Allies would have not been bothered that they were being hit by V-2s throughout the war? Or that Russia would have not cared as their strike force across the Volga was getting splattered by these brilliant designs.

It would have hastened their defeat. These weapons were far too expensive for what damage they were able to inflict. Without a precision guidance system, or a WMD warhead, they were a waste of resources, pure an simple.

Originally Posted by plan_D

The Germans were reaching a conclusion on their complicated nuclear bomb, until the British and Norweigans blew it sky high.

They were not even close. They were wasting thier time working with heavy water as a moderator when it wasn't even necessary. They barely had their first Atomic pile going in 1945. If they'd have had 3 or 4 more years they might have been able to build an A-bomb, but probably not.

Originally Posted by plan_D

And nice to see you missed out the tanks there, where America ALL the way through was designing to keep up. The Sherman to catch the IV F/2 - the Sherman improvements to try and counter Tigers and Panthers (failing) and finally the Pershing - still trying to catch the Tiger...and failing, although nearing equal in a straight shooting match.

I'll get to tanks at some future date, I am still waiting for some info on this issue. However, remember that the USA had to not only build the tanks, but ship them across the ocean. This meant that there was a realistic limitation on how big they could be. Germany had no such issues to deal with. Tanks were clearly a German strong point, except they made them so expensive (in terms of resources) to build that they could not build that many of them. In just 3 years the USA built more Sherman's than the Germans built tanks of all types during the whole war. And Sherman's were reliable, late mode German tanks were not.

The USA should have had a better tank than the Sherman, but lack of experiance at the point of designing the tank resulted in some bad choices. However, this is kind of a non-argument, as it was not a lack of ability to make a better tank that was the issue, it was simply a lack of understanding that a better tank needed to be built. Until June 1944, the USA thought the Sherman was as good as German tanks.

=S=

Lunatic

[plan_D]

Germans above the U.S -

1) Radar
2) Tank design
3) Rockets
4) Night Vision
5) Gyros
6) Electronics
7) Aerodynamics


The M1 Garand is something all Americans seem to love. Patton loved it too, maybe that makes you all love it. The fact of the matter is, it wasn't that good. It had less stopping power, accuracy and range than the Lee-Enfield, and the Lee-Enfield had less range than the Kar-98. Single-aimed shots fired with a bolt-action are more likely to hit. I admit, the M1 was good for the US army - a bunch of ill-trained raw recruits.

German technological supremecy in air power? Easy to finish this one - Me-262, Ta-152 and Go-229. The Go-229 was designed and ready to fly by the wars end...technologically superior to anything the Americans ever had. In fact, it took the US another 60s years to get a flying wing to work in the B-2.

A waste of resources, I think not. You obviously do not realise the destructive power and effectiveness these things could have had on a battlefront. Imagine counter-battery fire well out of the enemies artillery range, hundreds of miles out of their range. The first successful flight of the V-2 landed within 400 metres of its target area, which was 125 miles away.

You'll probably find the Germans had researched and began developing ideas for an atom bomb. It would not have taken another 3-4 years to get one ready. It would have when the place was blown up.

On the armour issue, waiting for information is nice. Hurry up. The Sherman was inferior, the US realised it in Sicily and Italy. America developed the M26 Pershing as their grand tank, well within shipping limits. This was their best tank design of the war and it was ALMOST a fair fight in a straight shooting match with a Tiger.
The fact that Germany, more Hitler, was so insistant on building many different kinds of heavier and heavier tanks does not take away the fact that German tanks were technically superior. Had production been limited to Pz. IVs and Panthers then production numbers would have been much-much higher. US Armoured divisions would have still been given a beating too.
Plain and simple, whatever the US would have designed after the Pershing would have been to catch up to the Germans. The Russians almost managed to keep with the Germans, and sometimes moved ahead - by May 7th 1945 they were ahead with the IS-3. The US (and all West) were nowhere near, the best the West had on D-Day was the Sherman Firefly - an American tank with a British modification. After that it was A34 Comet for the British and M26 Pershing (and the single M26E4 Super Pershing) for the US.

[evangilder]

Originally Posted by plan_D

In fact, it took the US another 60s years to get a flying wing to work in the B-2.

That is simply not correct. They were flying wing aircraft in the 50s. But the original American flying wing design goes back to 1941!!! Look up the Northrop XB-35. The scale model used for XB-35 testing is the Northrop N9M, which I have posted pictures of here.

From Joe Baugher's site:
In August of 1941, slightly more ambitious requirements were again submitted to Northrop. The flying wing bomber project (designated NS-9 by the company) received approval for an initial start from the USAAC in September of 1941, following a visit to the Northrop plant by Assistant Secretary of War Robert Leavitt, General Henry H. Arnold, and Major General Oliver P. Echols. The order was confirmed on October 30, 1941. The contract included a purchase order for engineering data, model tests, plus a 1/3-scale flying mockup known as the N9M. On November 22, a contract for a single XB-35 prototype and an option for a second was signed. The option for the second XB-35 was exercised on January 2, 1942. According to the terms of the contract, the first XB-35 was to be delivered in November 1943, with the second following in April of 1944.

Detailed design work on the XB-35 began in early 1942, and the XB-35 full-scale mock-up was approved on July 5, 1942. On December 17, 1942, 13 YB-35 service test aircraft were ordered.

Two more N-9M flying scale models were ordered in early 1943, with a fourth being ordered in mid-1943.

The XB-49 program followed that, using jet engines. If you see the movie "War of the Worlds" (the original), the B-49 was used in that movie.

If you want to continue with your comments how Americans had/have no technology or innovation, feel free, but at least get your facts straight before you sound off like that.

Additionally, RADAR may not have been invented by Americans, but an American commander was the first to use it for command and control, during the Battle of the Bulge. From my presentation material from last month:
General Quesada innovated with the technology. He built an entire command and control structure using radar and radio intercept. He used the Microwave Early Warning (MEW) radar for area control and long-range alert and the SCR-584 for close range, precision targeting. Using this, Quesada accomplished something that had never been done before; using aircraft for ground support in bad weather. The radar was used to help direct fighters to target areas and assist them in finding their home bases. They could also validate targets by correlating ground locations with current fighter positions. The radar could also be used to bomb through the clouds. Using radar to attack ground targets was devastating to the Germans while keeping friendly fire casualties to a minimum. This new technique became a decisive factor in using air power to control the battle.


[/i]

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I have to agree with Plan_D on this. The Germas were not lacking in technology what they lacked mostly in was time and yes they lacked in many resources. But there technology was not lacking and was superior in many areas. As for the Mauser it too can cary a clip like the M-1 Garand (only 5 rounds though so yes not as much as the M-1), the Stg44 was such a good weapon that it was used as the basis for AK-47. German aircraft designs were also not lacking. They had many innovative designs that were years ahead of the allies or atleast just as good. Examples: Me-262, Arado Ar-234, Gotha Ho-229, Dornier Do-335, Junkers Ju-287, Me-264, Hs-132, Fw-190, Ta-152, Ta-183, He-280, Lippisch Dm-1, Me-163, Me-263, P.1101. As for the rockets like the V-1 and V-2, they were too late in the war to make an impact but Werner von Braun was on the right track and many years ahead of the allies. His V-2 was a remarkable design and based of this he started the whole ballistic missle program for the US. The US was so impressed by the V-1 design that they copied it. They did not design there own they copied it. As for ships the Germans deffinatly did not lack in designing there ships. There range finders were just as good and just look at the Bismark it was a remarkable ship. Yes it served a very short life but it was a very advanced and technological design and was at the time the most capable capital ship in the Atlantic. Look how it scared the British to the point that Churchill put all his resources to stop it. As for the tanks no one can argue that German tanks especially the Tiger and Panther were the most advanced tanks of WW2. The completly changed the way people designed tanks and no one ever cought up with them. The closest was the Russian T-34. A Tiger could take out a Sherman before the Sherman was even in range. So one can argue that German engineering and technology was very advanced but I will agree with you Lunatic that time and resources played a large role.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I am not arguing that the US was on the low end of the technological scale, they too were very advance and more advanced than the Germans in many areas but I would not say that the German technology was less than that of the US. As for the Radar it was the British that perfected it and used it to find out where the Germans were coming from.

[evangilder]

Agreed. I am not saying that the German technology was not good. But I cannot let major inaccuracies slip by. Apparently, there are a few things that some need to learn about American technology. Alot of people think the P-80 was America's first jet. That is also wrong. The first American jet flew in 1942! The Bell P-59 was the first jet, and it was more than a prototype or 2. They built 66 of them. It first flew only one years after the first Me-262 flight. Besides, the patent for the jet engine was awarded to a Brit, not a German.

Yes, America was behind the rest of the world in the late 1930's but once American industry kicked in, they caught up fast. Technology and innovation was there. Americans had the luxury of time to test things longer before putting into battle than the Germans did.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I agree with you fully. The funny thing about the Jet engine is that a Brit was developing one as well as a German but independently at the same time.

• It was Frank Whittle, a British pilot, who designed the first turbo jet engine in 1930. The first Whittle engine successfully flew in April, 1937. This engine featured a multistage compressor, and a combustion chamber, a single stage turbine and a nozzle
• The first jet airplane to successfully use this type of engine was the German Heinkel He 178 invented by Hans Von Ohain. It was the world's first turbojet powered flight.
• General Electric for the US Army Air Force built the first American jet plane. It was the XP-59A experimental aircraft.

Dr. Hans von Ohain and Sir Frank Whittle are both recognized as being the co-inventors of the jet engine. Each worked separately and knew nothing of the other's work. Hans von Ohain is considered the designer of the first operational turbojet engine. Frank Whittle was the first to register a patent for the turbojet engine in 1930. Hans von Ohain was granted a patent for his turbojet engine in 1936. However, Hans von Ohain's jet was the first to fly in 1939. Frank Whittle's jet first flew in in 1941.

Sir Frank Whittle was an English aviation engineer and pilot, the son of a mechanic, Frank Whittle joined the Royal Air Force or RAF as an apprentice. He joined an RAF fighter squadron in 1928 and became a test pilot in 1931. The young RAF officer was only 22 when he first thought to use a gas turbine engine to power an airplane. While often regarded as the father of modern jet propulsion systems, the young Frank Whittle tried without success to obtain official support for study and development of his ideas. He had to persist his research on his own initiative and received his first patent on turbojet propulsion in January 1930.

With private financial support, he began construction of his first engine in 1935. This engine, which had a single-stage centrifugal compressor coupled to a single-stage turbine, was successfully bench tested in April 1937; it was only a laboratory test rig, never intended for use in an aircraft, but it did demonstrate the feasibility of the turbojet concept. The modern turbojet engine used in many British and American aircraft is based on the prototype that Frank Whittle invented.

The firm of Power Jets Ltd., with which Whittle was associated, received a contract for a Whittle engine, known as the W1, on July 7, 1939. This engine was intended to power a small experimental aircraft. In February 1940, the Gloster Aircraft Company was chosen to develop the aircraft to be powered by the W1 engine - the Pioneer. The historic first flight of the Pioneer took place on May 15, 1941, with Flight Lieutenant P. E. G. Sayer as pilot.

Doctor Hans Von Ohain was a German airplane designer who invented an operational jet engine. Hans Von Ohain obtained his doctorate in Physics at the University of Göttingen in Germany and then became the junior assistant to Hugo Von Pohl, director of the Physical Institute at the University. German aircraft builder, Ernst Heinkel asked the university for assistance in new airplane propulsion designs and Pohl recommended his star pupil. Hans Von Ohain, was investigating a new type of aircraft engine that did not require a propeller. Only twenty-two years old when he first conceived the idea of a continuous cycle combustion engine in 1933, Hans Von Ohain patented a jet propulsion engine design similar in concept to that of Sir Frank Whittle but different in internal arrangement in 1934.
Hans Von Ohain joined Ernst Heinkel in 1936 and continued with the development of his concepts of jet propulsion. A successful bench test of one of his engines was accomplished in September 1937. A small aircraft was designed and constructed by Ernst Heinkel to serve as a test bed for the new type of propulsion system - the Heinkel He178. The Heinkel He178 flew for the first time on August 27, 1939. The pilot on this historic first flight of a jet-powered airplane was Flight Captain Erich Warsitz.

Hans Von Ohain developed a second improved jet engine, the He S.8A, which was first flown on April 2, 1941.
http://inventors.about.com/library/i...inehistory.htm

[evangilder]

Cool pics. I sure would like to have an original signed copy of that top one. Interesting main gear configuration on the He-178.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I agree with you fully. I wish I could have spoken to them and learned how they came up with there individual designs. I think the landing gear design was pretty neat on the 178. Definatly different from contempary designs but neat.

[evangilder]

By the way, here is a shot of the Bell P-59 airacomet. Here are its specs:
SPECIFICATIONS
Span: 45 ft. 6 in.
Length: 38 ft. 10 in.
Height: 11 ft. 11 3/4 in.
Weight: 10,532 lbs. loaded
Armament: One 37mm cannon and three .50-cal machine guns
Engines: Two General Electric I-16s of 1,650 lbs. thrust each
Serial number 44-22650

PERFORMANCE
Maximum speed: 450 mph.
Cruising speed: 320 mph.
Range: 440 miles
Service Ceiling: 43,400 ft.

While the performance wasn't much to be desired, it paved the way for future development.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yes the P-59 did pave the way for further US designs and it was refined in the P-80. Back to my other post about German technology another example is the U-Boots. They were years ahead of allied designs. The type XXI was the first "true" submarine and led to later designs by the US and British. I know it was late for that post but I just felt like posting it.

Here are the specs on the He-178

Type: Experimental jet
Origin: Ernest Heinkel AG
Models: V1 and V2
Production: 2 prototypes

Engine:
HeS 3B turbojet
Thrust (Early): 992 lb. (450kg)
Thrust (Later): 1,102 lb. (500kg)

Dimensions:
Wing span: 7.20m (23 ft. 3½ in.)
Wing Surface Area: N/A
Length: 7.48m (24 ft. 6½ in.)
Height: 2.10m (6 ft. 10½ in.)
Stabilizer Span: N/A

Weights:
Empty: 1620kg (3,572 lb.)
Loaded: 1998kg (4,405 lb.)

Performance:
Maximum Speed (at sea level): 435 mph (700 kph)
Cruise Speed: N/A
Range (at sea level): N/A
Initial Climb: N/A
Service Ceiling: N/A

Notes:
This little aircrafts primary claim to fame was that it was the aircraft, designed from the outset as a jet, to fly under jet propulsion. A private venture of Heinkel, the He 178 had a dural fuselage and a wooden wing. The powerplant, primarily designed by Hans-Joachim Pabst von Ohain, initially burned gasoline but later switched to diesel J2. The first flight was a short hop on August 24, 1939 followed three days later by a second flight. This second flight proved to be somewhat exciting when a loss of thrust was experienced after a bird was ingested in the intake. The V1 flew again on November 1, 1939 for the RLM (including Udet and Milch) at Marienehe but did not generate much interest. The V1 flew a couple more times and was eventually destroyed in the Berlin Air Museum by Allied bombers. The V2, which was supposed to have larger wings, was never flown.

Another aircraft that helped pave the way was the He-280

Origin: Ernest Heinkel
Type: Single-seat fighter
Engines: two 1,852lb (840kg) thrust Junkers Jumo 004A turbojets
Dimensions: Span 12m; Length 10.20m; Height 3.19m
Weights: Empty 7,386lb (3350kg); loaded 11,465lb (5200kg)
Performance: Maximum speed 508mph (817km/h); Range 382 Miles (615km)
This interesting fighter often goes unnoticed in the annals of flight, eclipsed by its more successful and glamorous brother the Me 262. The He 280 is however, a remarkable aircraft. It was the first jet combat aircraft, the first twin-jet aircraft and the first jet aircraft to go beyond prototype stage. The He 280 first flew under jet power on April 2, 1941 and eventually eight of these beautiful aircraft were built, but, even after a mock dogfight was arranged between the He 280 and a Fw 190, which the jet won easily, there was little interest in the jet. If the He 280 had ever reached combat, it was most likely to have been armed with three 20mm MG 151 cannons.

A german turbojet fighter, the first of all that could have been operational. Maiden flight on april, 5th, 1941. Heinkel, always interested in high speed aircraft, sponsored quite early the turbojet development of von Ohain and had because of this advantage the first experimental turbojet plane (He17 in flight. The He280 was a twinjet fighter developed for two He S8 (also called He109-001) radial turbojet engines. It had a modern bow-wheel landing gear (conventional ones caused problems with lifting up the tail without the propeller air stream on the horizontal fins) and an ejection seat. The german ministry of aviation (RLM) was quite upset of Heinkel´s private initiative and set up its own turbojet program, favoring competitors (that were´nt so far advanced) concerning both engine and airframe development (BMW, Jumo and Messerschmidt). This had as major result that the He S8 hadn´t enough development priority, and that´s why the heavier but stronger Jumo109-004 and BMW109-003 engines and the Me262 fighter (by far not as maneuvrable as the He280, which outmaneuvred a Fw190 in a mock dogfight, and in 1941 with conventional wings and landing gear). The He280 was a fighter, the Me262 just a heavy interceptor that could slip through the escorts. Nine prototypes, no others.

My comment:
The really interesting thing - except that it could have been operational short after Me262´s maiden flight - is its maneuvrability. The Me262 was
designed for top speed, yes, even more speed than useful (with 150km/h twice as much speed advantage than necessary for dogfight superiority).
It wasn´t usual to curve in a Me262 with more than a 45° angle (usual around 80°!), its acceleration was low, its Mk108 armament was especially
good for destruction of medium to heavy bombers at close distance only and it had a 50% higher weight and wing load.
The Me262 shot down some fighters like P-51D, but in the hands of aces like Galland!
The He280 instead had similar maneuverability like the Fw190A (wingload 4125kg : 21.5m2 = 191kg/m2, less than Fw190D!) and was
with its speed advantage and good armament most probably the best dogfighter of World War 2, especially in hit-and-run tactics.
The HeS08 and BMW109-003 engines had better handling and provided better acceleration than the Jumo109-004.
http://www.geocities.com/lastdingo/aviation/he280.htm

This aircraft was truely remarkable, fortunatly the Germans did not pursue it for political reasons or what not.

[cheddar cheese]

I think the He-178 is an extremely modern looking plane. Indeed the first time I ever saw a picture of it I thought it was a German development towards the end of the war. I was surprised to find it was a Jet pioneer.

Here is the Britsh Jet pioneer, the appropriately named Gloster E.28 "Pioneer".

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yeap it was definatly a pioneer, and it was quite impressive what it did for an experimental aircraft. Heinkel was very good at developing high speed aircraft. High speed aircraft are what he was most fascinated in.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

there's allot of mystery around the designation of that plane CC, some call it the E.28/39, the E.28 "Whittle", the E.28/39 "Whittle", the E.28 "Pioneer", the E.28/39 "Pioneer" are just a few, it has never been given a true name, it was merely left as the E.28/39, which is what i like to call it....................