Best Jet of the War?

[cheddar cheese]

In more ways than one.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Thats alright us Dieters can be quite corny also.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

[cheddar cheese]

Originally Posted by delcyros

I really doubt that the Ta-183 was ever flown

What's this then?

[delcyros]

I did noticed that Luft´46 site. It is qouted often. What is the source for that claim? You can trace it back to some Schiffer books and Myrha. They are not that reliable. And they do not proof (the picture of a Ta-183 prototype in Luftwaffe markings is actually a model photo). Ta-183 prototypes build under russian control? Possible. They did it with the Ju-287, DFS 346, Me-262 and others. The russians did not hide german designs (Mig did copied the Me-263=MiG I 270, you can read it everywere), and there is no russian source to verify this claim. And look closer to the MiG 15, there are similarities of course (middle wing layout, swept back), but there are great differences, too: First of all, the MiG-15 was designed around a Rolls-Royce Nene engine, the Ta-183 wasn´t. The landing gear retracts into the wing (and not into the fuselage, like the Ta-183 design), the Ta-183 has a completely different section compartimentation, the Mig-15 bears all components (like fuel, weapon, cockpit, engine) behind each other (space is defined by the dimensions of the Rolls Royce Nene engine), how different looks the Ta-183! (it has no circular hull design, it even bears fuel tanks above and parts of the landing gear under its engine!) Even the wing is another design: 35 degrees swept back wing (Mig-15) with -2 degrees anhedral against 40 degrees swept back wings without anhedral. We are talking about serious design differences, which you cannot simply declare with modifications. Kurt Tank later build the Pulqui-II for Argentinia, which is much more close to the original Ta-183 and turned out to be nothing special, beeing by far inferior to the Mig-15. It is a myth that the soviets did hide that plane to today because it was part of an super secret project, it´s laughable (cold war propaganda). On no russian sources you can find a hind to it (I tried for years), you can qoute me on that. Even with the problem of a proof from the negative in mind, it´s absency in MiG-related sources is remarkeble or isn´t it?

[delcyros]

Of course, if you can submit a photo or any original russian source I will change my mind....

[KraziKanuK]

CC, someone knows Photoshop or another graphic program.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

From all sources that I know the Ta-183 never flew but was built as a modified version by the Russians. And yes the modified version of the Ta-183 is the Mig-15 which does look different.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Now one aircraft that did fly was the Messerschmitt Me P.1101. It was an advanced fighter design and was flown by the Americans who captured it right before it was scheduled to test flight.

On July 15, 1944, the RLM submitted Proposal 226/II to Germany's aircraft manufacturers. This "Emergency Fighter Competition" specified the following requirements (although these were later to change several times) for the second-generation of jet-powered fighters for the Third Reich:

powered by a single Heinkel-Hirth He S 011 turbojet
level speed of 1000 km/h (621 mph) at 7000 meters (22966 feet)
fuel capacity of 1000 liters (264 gallons), for 1/2 hour of sea level flying time
operate at altitudes of 14000 meters (45931 feet)
armed with four MK 108 30mm cannon
pilot protection from 12.7mm (.5 inch) from the front
pressurized cockpit
Engineer Hans Hornung, of Messerschmitt, began to create the first of the Me P.1101 single-seat, single jet engine fighter designs. Only nine days after the specification was issued by the RLM (July 24, 1944), the first Me P.1101 had taken shape on paper. The fuselage was short and wide, with two round air intakes on either side of the cockpit, which fed the single He S 011 jet engine which was located in the lower rear fuselage. 710 liters (188 gallons) of fuel could be contained above and below the turbojet. The wings featured two different sweepback angles, a steeper angle (40 degrees) near the fuselage and a shallower angle (26 degrees) outboard. Flaps were located over the entire trailing edge to aid in slow speed operations. Another 170 liters (45 gallons) of fuel could be carried in wing tanks located in each of the inner wing sections, making a total of 1050 liters (277 gallons). The V-tail unit (110 degrees of separation) was mounted on a boom that extended above the jet exhaust, a feature that would be present on all future Me P.1101 designs. A steel plate was used on the underside of the tail boom, to protect the enclosed radio equipment from engine exhaust heat. The nose wheel of the tricycle landing gear retracted to the rear and the two main wheels retracted forwards into the wing roots. A single SC 500 bomb could be carried, partially stowed in a belly recess. The main armament was to consist of two MK 108 30mm cannon, located in the lower forward fuselage sides.
The next Me P.1101 design dated from August 30, 1944. It was basically similar to the first design, but sleeker. The fuselage had a more pointed nose section, and was designed to hold a variety of armament. As in the first design, two circular air intakes, located on either side of the cockpit, fed the single He S 011 jet engine which was located in the rear fuselage. There were two protected fuel tanks above the engine and behind the cockpit that held 830 kg (1830 lbs) of fuel. The wing was "borrowed" from the Me 262 outer wing, was swept back at 40 degrees and mounted mid-fuselage. A V-tail was also to be fitted on this design, with the jet engine exhausting below the tail boom. The nose wheel retracted to the rear and rotated 90 degrees to lie flat beneath the weapons bay in the nose. Both main wheels retracted inwards towards the wing roots. Provisions were made for a drop tank, and even for a towed fuel tank using the V-1 wing! The armament was to be either a MK 112 55mm cannon or two MK 108 30mm cannons, with a possible third MK 108 or MK 103 30mm cannon being able to be squeezed in. One of the more advanced weapon proposals for this design variant of the Me P.1101 was for the upward firing SG 500 "Jagdfaust" (Fighter's Fist). This was basically a thin cased 50mm high explosive rocket propelled shell housed in a vertical tube. Two of these would have been placed in the fuselage nose, and a single SC 500 bomb could also be carried beneath the fuselage.
Even a ramjet powered P.1101 was proposed, the Me P.1101L (L for the Lorin ramjet). The fuselage was enlarged to accept the Lorin ramjet tube, and the undercarriage was kept simplified and low to the ground. Since a ramjet does not operate until a certain speed is reached, eight solid-propellant rockets with 1000 kp thrust each would be ignited to reach the ramjet's operating speed. Only a very short takeoff distance would be needed, but the aircraft's range would be limited, thus the Me P.1101L would have to be deployed near key Allied bombing targets.
After obtaining many differing results from a variety of wing profiles and fuselage shapes from windtunnel testing, Messerschmitt decided to actually build a full-scale, flying test aircraft. Since many of the components were already built (wing assembly, undercarriage, engine and controls), it was felt that the aircraft could be flying and giving more accurate test results in a relatively short time. There was no official backing from the RLM of Luftwaffe High Command for the construction of this test aircraft. On November 10, 1944, Engineer Hans Hornung brought the initial design phase of the final variant to a close by handing over all documents and design data to the Construction Bureau. The selection of the construction materials was begun shortly thereafter on December 4, 1944, with component manufacturing commencing under the direction of Mortiz Asam( who, after the war, helped design the Aero Spacelines "Super Guppy" for the US). A time-saving, yet risky approach was tried on the final version of the Me P.1101: Production was to run parallel with statistical calculations and with detail construction. Despite delays due to the worsening war situation and transportation of some of the components, construction slowly took place at Messerschmitt's Oberammergau complex in the Bavarian mountains of southern Germany. This complex was unknown to the Allies, and never suffered any bombing raids during the war. An experimental testing program was also being devised. It was intended to begin the test flights with the wing sweep set at 35 degrees, and later to try a 45 degree sweep, since the wing was designed to be set at different sweepback angles while on the ground. The first test flight was to take place in June 1945. Also, a combat version was also being developed from the research version then being constructed.
The Me P.1101 V1 was about 80% complete when the Oberammergau complex was discovered by American troops on April 29, 1945, a few days before the war's end. The fuselage was constructed out of duralumin, with space provided beneath the cockpit for the air duct. Located behind the cockpit and above the engine was the fuel supply of 1000 liters (220 gallons). The rear fuselage tapered down to a cone, where the radio equipment, oxygen equipment, directional control and master compass were mounted. The underside of the rear fuselage was covered over with sheet steel, for protection from the heat of the jet exhaust. Although a Jumo 004B jet engine was planned for the first prototype, the more powerful He S 011 could be added on later versions with a minimum of fuss. The wing was basically the same as the Messerschmitt Me 262 wing from the engine (rib 7) to the end cap (rib 21), including the Me 262's aileron and leading edge slats. A second wing assembly was delivered in February 1945, in which the leading edge slots had been enlarged from 13% to 20% of the wing chord. The wing covered in plywood, and could be adjusted on the ground at 35, 40 or 45 degrees of sweepback. Both the vertical and horizontal tails were constructed of wood, and the rudder could be deflected 20 degrees. Also under design was a T-tail unit and a V-tail also. The undercarriage was of a tricycle arrangement. The nose wheel retracted to the rear and was steerable. The main gear retracted to the front, and included brakes. The cockpit was located in the nose, with a bubble canopy giving good vision all around. The canopy was kept clear by warm air which could be drawn from the engine. Cockpit pressurization was to be incorporated in the production model, as was either two or four MK 108 30mm cannon. The production model was also to fitted with cockpit armor, and up to four underwing X-4 air-to-air missiles could be carried.
A few days before the Allied Army was expected to appear, Messerschmitt had all the engineering drawings, calculations and design work placed on microfilm and packed in watertight containers. These containers were then hidden in four locations in surrounding villages. On Sunday, April 29, 1945, an American infantry unit entered the Oberammergau complex, seizes a few documents, and destroyed much of what remained with axes. The Me P.1101 V1 incomplete prototype was also found, and pulled out of a nearby tunnel where it was hidden. Within a few days of the German capitulation, American specialists had arrived to assess the significance of the seized Messerschmitt complex. After questioning some of the Messerschmitt employees, it was learned of the missing documents. When the American team tried to recover these hidden microfilmed documents, they found that the French Army had already recovered some of the documents.
One of the men in the American research team was Robert J. Woods, of the Bell Aircraft Works. He and Messerschmitt chief designer Woldemar Voight lobbied for the completion of the Me P.1101 V1 prototype in June 1945. This proved to be impossible, due to the fact that most of the design documents were now in France (which they refused to share at this point in time), and other key information had been destroyed. The prototype was by now showing damage due to the rough treatment it had been receiving, such as sitting outside in the elements and even as a photographical curiosity for American GIs.
The Me P.1101 V1 was shipped to the Bell Aircraft Works in Buffalo, New York in August 1948. More damage was sustained when the aircraft fell off a freight car, which in effect ruled out any possibility for repair and flight testing. The P.1101 was fitted with an Allison J-35 jet engine, and mock-up weapons (6 x Mg 151 and 4 x MK 108 cannon) were pasted on the fuselage sides. Bell used the Me P.1101 as the basis for the X-5, during which individual parts of the P.1101 were used for static testing. Sometime in the early 1950s, the remainder of the Messerschmitt Me P.1101 V1 was sent to the scrap yard, thus ending this unique and distinctive aircraft's history.
http://www.luft46.com/mess/mep1101.html

[delcyros]

Adler,

"...one plane did fly..."

Yes, the Me-P.1101 is one of the most advanced planes build in 1945. But Your source does also underline that id did NOT fly anytime. It couldn´t have flown thanks to the damages and the worse general shape (fauling was extremely dangerous to the surface quality and structural integrity of the wing, you can it see on some pictures of 1946, at which that plane is shown modified with an american jet engine) due to the bad conditions it had to face outside when it was displayed to GI´s. It was also never completed: "...it proved to be impossible, due to the fact, that most of the design documents were now in France..." It did influence the Bell X-5 design, surely. But the Bell X-5 was also a new development beeing more advanced than the Me P.1101, it could sweep it´s wings during flight (which was impossible vor the Messerschmidt) and it did bear a much better jet engine. The Me-P.1101 however, was scrapped without ever having a maiden flight...
(and again, there is simply no independent source to confirm that the Ta-183 had to do anything, except from it´s general fighter layout, with the MiG-15...)

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I am sorry you are completly correct, I misread my info on it. I also went back and read some excerts from a book that I have on it and it said the same thing.

[delcyros]

Never mind, Adler.

I have digged out some nice information of both designs (Me-P.1101 and Ta-183). You would find it interesting that the Messerschmidt design was probably much better than the Tank design. I´m not sure in all details but my calculations show that Tanks wingdesign was somewhat "risky". High degree (40) of swept back wing without anhedral together with an even higher aspect ratio (and no boundary layers or leading edge slots) compared to the Messerschmidt wing would seriously affect the low speed handling of the Ta-183. it would also result in a higher stall speed and even worse stall behavior. Tank wanted to push the critical mach speed beyond 0.94, but his wing layout sacrified much to reach such a high mach speed. I do belive that there would have been a very high probability of accidents during the first flights with the early Ta-183 V-prototypes, even with the lower wingload in mind. Messerschmidt´s wing designs, however, were more balanced in general. The wingload was higher, but he used leading edge slots to increase lift at slow and stalling speeds (very much like the Me-262), that would result in much better low speed handling. The wing was an excellent design, proven in the Me-262, and critical Mach speed would also have been at around 0.92-0.94.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Interesting analysis and some good info thanks. I am always interested in learning new things. Thanks.

[delcyros]

Thanks a lot.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Rock On