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05-02-2007, 03:17 AM
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#46 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Adelaide
Posts: 3,168
Country:  | I voted for the P-51D for the same reasons stated by Des 
BTW someone has voted 5 times on this poll.
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05-02-2007, 05:30 AM
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#47 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Campospinoso (PV), Italy
Posts: 637
| ??? voted before reading the thread and went for multiple choices as allowed by the pool.. hope nobody will send me a B17 (... with the current price of gas for me it's bankrupcy to fuel up my 262...)
Anyway my choices are: P51D, Zero and Mosquito, for different reasons and in that order.
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He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife. - Douglas Adams
In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. - Douglas Adams | |
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05-02-2007, 10:21 AM
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#48 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,100
Country:  | I voted for the P-51D. Both the P-47N and P-51H have impressive performance figures, but the D just has too much experience. | |
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05-03-2007, 04:44 PM
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#49 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,281
| I'm leaning towards the Ta-152H-1, it had a range of over a 1,000 miles with the extra internal tanks, and unlike all the other it would've been immune to intercepting fighters while flying around at 50,000 ft.
__________________  We have built a total of about 1250 of this aircraft (Me-262), but only fifty were allowed to be used as fighters - as interceptors. And out of this fifty, there were never more than 25 operational. So we had only a very, very few.
- Adolf Galland | |
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05-03-2007, 07:26 PM
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#50 | | Minister of Whoopass
Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Long Island Native in Mississippi
Posts: 12,533
Country: | I would lean in ur direction Soren if it werent for the proven combat effectiveness of the P-51D.... Too over powering...
The Tank??? Would coulda shoulda...
__________________  "Boyington was a Drunk, but He was a Drunk We'd Follow Straight Into Hell..."
-- Lt. William Northrop Case | |
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05-03-2007, 09:15 PM
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#51 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,281
| But the P-51D isn't 'the best' long range fighter. The P-51D was effective because there were huge numbers of it, take away that advantage and things would've looked very different. But what would 100 P-51's have done against 40 Ta-152's flying at 50,000 ft ?? The P-51's could do nothing..
__________________ We have built a total of about 1250 of this aircraft (Me-262), but only fifty were allowed to be used as fighters - as interceptors. And out of this fifty, there were never more than 25 operational. So we had only a very, very few.
- Adolf Galland | |
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05-04-2007, 06:15 AM
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#52 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 12,511
Country: | Soren I cannot dispute the performance of the 152, but a range of 1000 miles? Hardly long range when compared to the P-51 or later model P-47s. Sure she could fly at 50,000 feet but what good will that do when it had the same range as later model Spitfires? 1000 miles is a fair range, hardly long range when compared to the P-51 or even the P-38.
__________________ "IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT"  | |
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05-04-2007, 09:38 AM
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#53 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Jacksonville, NC
Posts: 3,026
Country: | Quote:
Originally Posted by Soren  But the P-51D isn't 'the best' long range fighter. The P-51D was effective because there were huge numbers of it, take away that advantage and things would've looked very different. But what would 100 P-51's have done against 40 Ta-152's flying at 50,000 ft ?? The P-51's could do nothing.. | Why would P-51D's tangle with them at 50,000'???? They wouldn't! Fighters/interceptors are defensive weapons and they wouldn't be setting the terms of the engagement.
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Last edited by mkloby : 05-04-2007 at 09:50 AM.
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05-04-2007, 09:12 PM
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#54 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,281
| Quote:
Originally Posted by mkloby Why would P-51D's tangle with them at 50,000'???? They wouldn't! Fighters/interceptors are defensive weapons and they wouldn't be setting the terms of the engagement. |
mkloby,
If say 50 German bombers are coming in on the British coast at say 30 -35 kft, British radar detects this and the RAF scrambles its fighters - in this case 100 P-51's - The P-51's makes eye contact with the bombers, but wait something is covering the bombers up high, 40 or so enemy fighters - what to do ? The P-51's decide to attack the bombers before they reach further inland and reach their intended targets. 50 or so P-51's start a head on attack, while 50 or so others are ready incase the covering LW fighters decied to decide to attack. And sure enough 20 or so of the LW fighters start to dive at the engaging -51's, FAST !! So fast that without a chance the covering -51's can only watch as several of the engaged -51's are shot down. The covering -51's decide to concentrate on the LW fighters now and take pursuit, however the climb of the LW fighters after their attack is astonishing and the -51 can't keep up. And as if this isn't enough the remaining LW fighters dive at the now slowly moving -51's in the climb - Break! - more -51's are shot down and the LW fighters climb again at an amazing rate. What to do ? Stay and fight and risk nearly all -51's being shot down ? Or hit the deck and get the heck out of there ?!
See the problem ??
__________________ We have built a total of about 1250 of this aircraft (Me-262), but only fifty were allowed to be used as fighters - as interceptors. And out of this fifty, there were never more than 25 operational. So we had only a very, very few.
- Adolf Galland | |
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05-04-2007, 09:19 PM
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#55 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,281
| Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ Soren I cannot dispute the performance of the 152, but a range of 1000 miles? Hardly long range when compared to the P-51 or later model P-47s. Sure she could fly at 50,000 feet but what good will that do when it had the same range as later model Spitfires? 1000 miles is a fair range, hardly long range when compared to the P-51 or even the P-38. | On full tanks the Ta-152H-1 could probably fly as far as the P-51..
__________________ We have built a total of about 1250 of this aircraft (Me-262), but only fifty were allowed to be used as fighters - as interceptors. And out of this fifty, there were never more than 25 operational. So we had only a very, very few.
- Adolf Galland | |
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05-04-2007, 09:39 PM
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#56 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Jacksonville, NC
Posts: 3,026
Country: | Quote:
Originally Posted by Soren mkloby,
If say 50 German bombers are coming in on the British coast at say 30 -35 kft, British radar detects this and the RAF scrambles its fighters - in this case 100 P-51's - The P-51's makes eye contact with the bombers, but wait something is covering the bombers up high, 40 or so enemy fighters - what to do ? The P-51's decide to attack the bombers before they reach further inland and reach their intended targets. 50 or so P-51's start a head on attack, while 50 or so others are ready incase the covering LW fighters decied to decide to attack. And sure enough 20 or so of the LW fighters start to dive at the engaging -51's, FAST !! So fast that without a chance the covering -51's can only watch as several of the engaged -51's are shot down. The covering -51's decide to concentrate on the LW fighters now and take pursuit, however the climb of the LW fighters after their attack is astonishing and the -51 can't keep up. And as if this isn't enough the remaining LW fighters dive at the now slowly moving -51's in the climb - Break! - more -51's are shot down and the LW fighters climb again at an amazing rate. What to do ? Stay and fight and risk nearly all -51's being shot down ? Or hit the deck and get the heck out of there ?!
See the problem ?? | I get your point - although I was thinking in a historical context - your scenario at that point in the war is not reality. 2nd, I think you are relying too much upon A/C performance data and ignoring the role of ACM and tactics relating to engagements. Just because a 152 is superior doesn't mean the 152 dives and instantly plucks a 51 out of the sky, climbing back up to relative safety with impunity.
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If the Army and the Navy ever look on heaven's scenes, they will find the streets are guarded by United States Marines | |
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05-05-2007, 01:46 AM
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#57 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,281
| I'm not ignoring tactics mkloby, I'm just being realistic here. How on earth are you going to catch a speedier and much faster climbing a/c which has been diving at someone at 750 -800 km/h and starts climbing back up again with alot more energy than you ??
__________________ We have built a total of about 1250 of this aircraft (Me-262), but only fifty were allowed to be used as fighters - as interceptors. And out of this fifty, there were never more than 25 operational. So we had only a very, very few.
- Adolf Galland | |
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05-05-2007, 03:33 AM
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#58 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 5,078
Country:  | Frustration for the P-51 pilots..... The Ta pilots could probably pick the target, dive in, make the kill or damage and speed back up again, turn around and look for the next victim....
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JAN
"I´m going back to the front to relax"
"THE BLACK CATS FLIES TONIGHT"
"Find your enemy and shoot him down - everything else is unimportant"
"When you're out of F-8's... You're out of fighters!" | |
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05-05-2007, 10:31 AM
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#59 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 12,511
Country: | Quote:
Originally Posted by Soren On full tanks the Ta-152H-1 could probably fly as far as the P-51.. | "probably" Sorry Soren - would of should of could of....
__________________ "IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT" | |
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05-05-2007, 11:06 AM
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#60 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 5,078
Country: | 755 miles to 1,250 miles depending on speed and external tankage....
The Japanese Army acquired the license,schemes and papers for manufacturing the Ta 152 in Japan during last stages of the conflict, what was the plans for them, fight of the B-29's? Would they have had licensed the engine as well, or put their own in? Did they have a suitable engine?
__________________
JAN
"I´m going back to the front to relax"
"THE BLACK CATS FLIES TONIGHT"
"Find your enemy and shoot him down - everything else is unimportant"
"When you're out of F-8's... You're out of fighters!"
Last edited by Lucky13 : 05-05-2007 at 11:20 AM.
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