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06-10-2007, 04:11 PM
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#106 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 8,143
| For the ETO: P51
For the PTO: P38
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"Pilot to copilot..... what are those mountain goats doing up here in the clouds?" | 
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06-10-2007, 04:21 PM
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#107 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: oregon
Posts: 2,142
Country:  | Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky13  DAMN!! Sore arse after those missions, eh? | Actually my father's longest (seat time) missions were in order D-Day 7:50 Area Patrol, 8:00 on Area Patrol in Evereaux area on June 8 and 7:50 to Piryatin, Russia on 18 september.
Syscom - I was only referring to ETO missions for both the 38s and 51s.
What were the long range profiles for the P-38 escorts on the 2,000 and 3,000 mile escort missions? (from where to where, and where did the 38s R/V the bombers ie "200 miles from target" ??)
The 51's could do a 2,000 miler w/ferry tanks but not 3,000
Erich - as you probably know Doolittle went to the mat to get the 354FG from 9th AF but was 'only' able to get 357FG in exchange for 358FG which was operational 47 group before 357 cranked up. Not a bad trade. And yes the 354FG HATED the Jug even though it was more survivable to flak.
Regards,
Bill | |
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06-10-2007, 04:32 PM
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#108 | | the old Sage
Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere
Posts: 8,997
Country: | yes I know about the incident Bill, the 354th guys did not really care one way or the other but the 8th did get a hot shot group without a doubt - the 357th
several of the 354th guys to this day are pretty pissed off that they in the 9th AF were termed as dive-bomber boys a trait the 354th fg never liked nor felt were suited for, they wanted 1 to 1 with the Luftw. | |
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06-10-2007, 04:43 PM
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#109 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 8,143
| The P38's were flying from Middleburg Island (Sansapor) to Balikpapin in Borneo and Morotai to Balikpapin.
I believe there were some missions from Biak to Balikpapin but not sure.
Some were for bomber escort, others for fighter sweeps.
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"Pilot to copilot..... what are those mountain goats doing up here in the clouds?" | |
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06-10-2007, 04:49 PM
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#110 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: oregon
Posts: 2,142
Country: | Quote:
Originally Posted by syscom3 The P38's were flying from Middleburg Island (Sansapor) to Balikpapin in Borneo and Morotai to Balikpapin.
I believe there were some missions from Biak to Balikpapin but not sure.
Some were for bomber escort, others for fighter sweeps. | The Max range would probably have been a Fighter Sweep to enable strict cruise pretty much to target with ferry tanks - would be my guess. Having to "S" over B-24's would have absorbed a lot of range potential.
Thanks,
Bill | |
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06-10-2007, 04:55 PM
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#111 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 6,102
Country:  | How much did they improve the range of the P-38's after Lindberghs visit?
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JAN
"I´m going back to the front to relax"
"THE BLACK CATS FLIES TONIGHT"
"Find your enemy and shoot him down - everything else is unimportant!"
"When you're out of F-8's... You're out of fighters!" | |
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06-10-2007, 06:01 PM
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#112 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 8,143
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Originally Posted by drgondog The Max range would probably have been a Fighter Sweep to enable strict cruise pretty much to target with ferry tanks - would be my guess. Having to "S" over B-24's would have absorbed a lot of range potential.
Thanks,
Bill | At this years Chino Airshow, I talked to a 5th BG pilot, and he said that on a several of his long range missions (over 1000 miles) they had fighter escort over the target which was Balipapin or Tarakan.
And it still doesn't matter what plane you're using to have direct overhead escort.
Both used pretty much the same amount of fuel per hour.
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"Pilot to copilot..... what are those mountain goats doing up here in the clouds?" | |
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06-10-2007, 06:03 PM
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#113 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 8,143
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Originally Posted by Lucky13 How much did they improve the range of the P-38's after Lindberghs visit? | They nearly doubled the endurance.
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"Pilot to copilot..... what are those mountain goats doing up here in the clouds?" | |
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06-10-2007, 07:32 PM
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#114 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: oregon
Posts: 2,142
Country: | Quote:
Originally Posted by syscom3 At this years Chino Airshow, I talked to a 5th BG pilot, and he said that on a several of his long range missions (over 1000 miles) they had fighter escort over the target which was Balipapin or Tarakan.
And it still doesn't matter what plane you're using to have direct overhead escort.
Both used pretty much the same amount of fuel per hour. | I have a tendency to agree with you but I believe the consumption per hour for a 51 was less than the 38 with two allisons at cruise vs 1 PMerlin at cruise, I could be wrong. In any case for the 'overhead' escort they weren't making progress any faster than the B-24 they were covering while they were covering it.
Per pound of fuel carried the 51 went further than the 47 or the 38 - aeordynamics being the big factor.
Regards,
Bill | |
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06-10-2007, 07:36 PM
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#115 | | the old Sage
Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere
Posts: 8,997
Country: | Bill are we talking with the use of external aluminum or paper tanks on the Mustang ? or furthering the range even more ........ ? | |
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06-10-2007, 08:09 PM
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#116 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 8,143
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Originally Posted by drgondog I have a tendency to agree with you but I believe the consumption per hour for a 51 was less than the 38 with two allisons at cruise vs 1 PMerlin at cruise, I could be wrong. In any case for the 'overhead' escort they weren't making progress any faster than the B-24 they were covering while they were covering it.
Per pound of fuel carried the 51 went further than the 47 or the 38 - aeordynamics being the big factor.
Regards,
Bill | The P38 had a higher payload than the P51, thus could fly further.
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"Pilot to copilot..... what are those mountain goats doing up here in the clouds?" | |
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06-11-2007, 06:22 AM
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#117 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 6,102
Country: | Cheers Syscom....
__________________
JAN
"I´m going back to the front to relax"
"THE BLACK CATS FLIES TONIGHT"
"Find your enemy and shoot him down - everything else is unimportant!"
"When you're out of F-8's... You're out of fighters!" | |
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06-11-2007, 11:28 AM
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#118 | | Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 13
Country:  | uugggleee little bubble plane, but if it good enough for the Tuskegees it good enough for me to vote in.
x | |
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06-11-2007, 05:21 PM
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#119 | | Minister of Whoopass
Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Long Island Native in Mississippi
Posts: 12,963
Country: | The Tuskegees lived under the shadow of a lie for decades.... Voting for that aircraft on that basis alone is incomprehensible...
__________________  "Boyington was a Drunk, but He was a Drunk We'd Follow Straight Into Hell..."
-- Lt. William Northrop Case | |
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06-11-2007, 08:02 PM
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#120 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Phila, Pa
Posts: 2,381
Country: | 2000 miles in a P51 or a P38. Figure you are averaging your cruise speed of 200mph ( no basis beyond occasional conversations with people). So that is 10 hours in cockpit about the same size as the seat in an NFL stadium. And at the halfway point (5 hours in) you put your body through a boxing match (complete with sweat and beatings).
Cripes man, you gotta be 20 years old to do that. I've done 2 hours in a radial engined trainer and my butt was numb. | |
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