Best Messerschmitt Bf109 subtype

[kool kitty89]

And a 25% heavier projectile doesn't mean 25% more filler.
The MG 151/20 used the Mine Round ammo with a much higher % filler than normal, this also resulted in a lighter, less dense round. (due to less metal content)

I don't have figures for the Hispan ammo but for the MG 151/20:

AP - round weight of 117 g.
HE - round weight of 115 g. HE filler: 3.6 g
HE(M) - Minengeschoß ("mine shell") - round weight of 92 g. HE filler: 18 g
HE(XM) - round weight of 104g. HE filler: 25 g


Though the Hispao gun did have a somewhat higher muzzel velocity and muzel power (and a higher recoil force), it was a bit heavier as well and had a lower max ammo load. (150 rounds with belt feed iirc, opposed to well over 200 rounds for the 151/20; though in later developments this did change)

[SpitfireKing]

Unfortunatley, I prove my ignorance on aircraft. I chose the variants as a guess, brand me as a heretic if you must, I say what I say, and I did because I just felt like it.

[kool kitty89]

I missed Fokker's earlier comment that already explained the HE difference:

The Hispano II HE round has 8% HEI * 130 gram projectile = 10.4 grams of high explosive.

The MG 151/20 HEM round has 21,7% HEI * 92 gram projectile = 19.964 grams of high explosive.

And as I posted the HE(XM) - round weight of 104g. HE filler: 25 g

Widened this gap even further; but it should also be noted that while actual kinetic energy of the round doesn't matter too much for a HE shell, muzzle velocity (and balitic shape) always matter for trajectory/range reasons.

[lesofprimus]

Originally Posted by SpitfireKing

Unfortunatley, I prove my ignorance on aircraft. I chose the variants as a guess, brand me as a hertic if you must, I say what I say, and I did because I just felt like it.

This is a perfect example of why these Polls are usually bogus...

And for the record, we dont need ur stupid ignorant comments as to why... And what the fu*k is a hertic??

[Fokker D21]

The Hispano was used with a 1 to 1 ratio (SAPI to HE).

The MG 151/20 was used in the ratio's 1 to 1 to 1 and 1 to 2 to 2 and 1 to 1 to 3 (HET to API to HEM).

It depended on the type of target. Against bombers the ammo make up was 1 to 1 to 3, against heavily armored Il-2 the make up was 1 to 2 to 2 or perhaps even 1 to 2 to 1

Local commanders had the freedom to make their own choices in ammo make up.

The Germans found out that HE rounds were more effective in air combat (except against heavily armored planes). So they came up with the idea of an extreme thin walled round (Minengeschoss) , with more HE capacity.

Both 20mm and 30 mm guns got a HEM round. The 30mm is even much more powerful.

[Fokker D21]

It seems that the Bf 109D met the Hawk 75 in combat, as Osprey's "Bf 109 D/E Aces of the Blitzkrieg" mentions an engagement between 27 Doras of JGr 102 and 9 Hawks guarding a Potez 63 reconnaissance aircraft.

The score was 4 Me 109s shot down and another 5 crash-landed against just 1 Hawk shot down. (It appears that the Messerschmitts tried to bounce the Hawks, so it's not like they were caught unaware.)

It proves that the 109 D was quickly becoming obsolete. Probably why it doesn't get many votes.

[kool kitty89]

It proves that the 109 D was quickly becoming obsolete. Probably why it doesn't get many votes.

??? What was that in response to?

And the
HE(M) - Minengeschoß ("mine shell") - round weight of 92 g. HE filler: 18 g
should later have been upgraded to the
HE(XM) - round weight of 104g. HE filler: 25 g
which had the HE filler much more compressed along with a slightly different shell casing.

[Kurfürst]

I would tend to go with the G-1/G-2. These were matured designs, with multirole capabilty, excellent performance at all altitudes easily converted to special tasks; they also made quite an impression on evaluation teams, particularly in Russia and in North Africa, where they were most heavily faced; they can be argued to be the best fighters in the World when they appeared, but certainly in top 5, with a good degree of superiority over the most common (which were not neccesarily the latest) enemy types they faced.

Overall, the things that make me consider them the best of the 109 lineage is their maturity as a design, their availability (a bit connected to the last point as they required little changes, and thus could be produced quickly) and their relative performance compared to the opposition they faced; as Bill pointed out, the later, more 'ultimate' variants may be a tempting choice, but the late war enviroment was a much more challanging one, both in terms of opposing aircraft quality and the overall situation in the air..

[claidemore]

Agree with you 100% Kurfurst.

Claidemore

[Fokker D21]

I would tend to go with the G-1/G-2

Kurfürst, at what time did the 109 G6 finallly get approval for emergency rating (notleistung)? And was combat rating (kampfleistung) as a maximum for the 109 G2 a disadvantage in air combat?

[Kurfürst]

1,42ata was finally cleared in October 1943. There`s clear indication that it was cleared before, in November 1942, and June 1943, but was probably recalled in those two earlier instances.

As for 1.3ata for the G-2 (and G-6) until the automn of 1943, I wouldn`t say it was that much of a disadvantage - especially the G-2 had excellent performance anyway..

[Soren]

The K-4 because it was more aerodynamically clean than the previous versions and boasted an unrivalled climb rate of some 5,000 + ft/min and turned better than the latest Spitfire.

Pretty awesome with a 645 km/h cruising speed as-well.

[flojo]

Originally Posted by Soren

The K-4 because it was more aerodynamically clean than the previous versions and boasted an unrivalled climb rate of some 5,000 + ft/min and turned better than the latest Spitfire.

Pretty awesome with a 645 km/h cruising speed as-well.

What is the source of the information that the K4 turned better than the latest Spitfires. Was any K4 tested against Mk14 or MK21 at the end or after the war?

[Soren]

The source is aerodynamics flojo.

When it comes to turn performance there are a number of very important factors to consider:

1.) The weight & size of the aircraft
2.) The Clmax of the wing
3.) The Aspect ratio of the wing (The e-factor needs to be taking into consideration for better accuracy)
4.) The power available
5.) The Cd value of the a/c ( Cd = Cd0 + Cdi)

[Hunter368]

Originally Posted by Soren

The K-4 because it was more aerodynamically clean than the previous versions and boasted an unrivalled climb rate of some 5,000 + ft/min and turned better than the latest Spitfire.

Pretty awesome with a 645 km/h cruising speed as-well.

At what speed could it out turn a Spitfire ? At what height is that at?