Best Nightfighter of WW2

[kiwimac]

Erich,

Your comments would make the Me 210 / 410 leading candidates for best nf then, nicht wahr?

Kiwimac

[Erich]

Nein ! Worthless as a nachtjager. About the only good the 410 did was be a better day bomber destroyer than the Bf 110G-2.

Ju 88G-6 superior to anything except the Me 262A-1a

Erich ~

[MP-Willow]

If the German Jet was so good why was it so late in comming to full production? Was it pol;itics that came into play?

[Erich]

Of course it was ! Göring only at the last accepted the idea from Kurt Welter who could see the future of the nf force. In almost daily plea's from Welter, Göring finally gave in and Kurt was able to start up an independent Kommando. He had tested the Ar 234 but with all the frontal glass and the cramed exit door he felt that he would not be protected against the debris of a downed RAF bomber, besides being blinded by searchlights and fires from burning cities below. The Me 262 single seater was used to good effect and it was the standard for the 10./NJG 11 staffel even with the addition of 6 B-1a two seaters with only one of these scoring a victory.

[plan_D]

The P-61 was only good enough as a ground attack aircraft, and it did it brilliantly in Korea.

You can't really use the rear-armament against the Mosquito, because it was jumped by '262s'. What is a rear gunner going to do about that when four 30mm cannons are spitting lead at him. You aren't going to stop it.

[Erich]

remember though that the 3cm kanon was a short range weapon and the Me 262 had to get in pretty close.

also the Mossie nf and the bomber versions were both shot down by the Bf 110G-4 and Ju 88G's, so yes a rearward gun would of been handy.....

[Huckebein]

Erich, my dear friend, you are severely overestimating the advantages of carrying rearward firing defences. Mosquitoes were tested with a four gun Boulton Paul turret, but the performance decrease due to weight and drag far outweighed the advantages. Neither the Mosquito nor the '219 had any need for defensive armament, as they both sported sparkling performance and a good turn of manoeuvrability. Nothing could have been added to the Mosquito to make it stand up better to a '262 on its tail than it already did. The only Mossies shot down by jets were the same as those shot down by '110s and '88s - they were taken by surprise. For a Mosquito to evade Gaerman machines (except perhaps the Uhu), it could either outrun them ('110/ Ju 88 ) or out manoeuvre them (262). Once an enemy pilot has lost sight of you at night do not underestimate the difficulty he will have relocating you... Read the stories on www.mossie.org about recce Mosquitoes meeting '262s; not once do the pilots express a wish for rear-firing guns. The Ju 88 was a very good nightfighter, but if they came up against a Mosquito, without taking it by surprise, it would be the Junkers that would be forced to fly defensively. This was conclusively proven over the Bay of Biscay where German long-range Ju 88C fighters had to be extremely wary of Mosquitoes on strike patrols in the area. The only 'advantage' the Ju 88G had over the Mosquito nighfighters was slightly heavier armament and rear-firing guns, none of which were decisive. The Mosquito's four machine guns and four 20mms were more than enough to down any German machine, and the lack of defensive guns actually made the Mossie more able to evade the Ju 88 through speed and manoeuvrability.

Oh, and I never said the Germans didn't fly missions when Mosquitoes were about (God you're frustrating), I said that they 'caused severe delays'. Now if you're prepared to argue that the Germans took no notice whatsoever of marauding Mosquito Intruders, because the Mosquito was so harmless, then kindly take yourself away from a forum where discussion of the real life WWII airwar is preferred.

Originally Posted by Erich

the words Achtung Moskito was not heard that often and did not create the fear you are trying to confirm.

As for this, this is laughable. How on earth do you pretend to know how bloody often this phrase was heard? =D>

I also acknowledged the presence of some exaggeration in the opinion expressed in my post, but don't try and pretend that any nightfighter wouldn't be scared to hear there was a Mosquito right up his ar$e - that's like saying a Mustang pilot wouldnt be afraid to hear there was a '109 right behind him because ' 109s weren't that good anyway'.

I admire your sense of humour though Erich.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

he wont like that........................

[Erich]

u guys are such the experten aren't U ?

When you get to read my books I think you will have another awakening. My personal interviews with the Luftwaffe/RAF and Autralian/US vets tell another story. Don't give me that outmanuever crap anyway friend there was not one Mossie at night lost due to out manuevering agasint a Me 262 at night. They were all shot down. You have not given reagrd at all to the Bf 109G-6/AS whcih was also not outmanuevered in flight during August through November of 44. Your Ju 88C at Biscay line is not the same as a Ju 88G-6 in night flight. I have given you the response I have had from interviews with Luftwaffe NF crews. should I discount everything they say as bunk during the last 37 years of inteviews. ... ? have I not said repeatedly that much of what has been written the past years is being revised with the Truth ? Better wake up friends..........your quoting all old rubbish. Screw the UHU as well. Why are all of U guys so stuck on a would be a/c anyway ? See here is a prime example of wishful thinking. Get back to your records at PRO or the national archiv in the eastern US of A or Freiburg/Berlin in Germany and come up with the true stats. have we all been reading too much of William Greens tales from his outdated Thrid Reich a/c book ?

I believe wholeheartedly that the Mossie XXX was the finest NF during the war bar none, but the German machine put up a stout defence to try and counter as well as it's record of attrition against the RAF is true. The Me 262A-1a gave it to the Mossie right up the butt -- you'll read this in my book(s), but it was also self evident that it was the RAF heavy 4-engine bombers that were of the major concern over what was left of the war torn cities; reason enough for Kurt Welter to advise the ministry of taking the two seat trainer and adapting it for nf use, seondary cockpit for radar operator and Neptun 218 to be supplied as well as auxiallry drop tanks so the jet could compete in hopeful longer running battles which the A-1a could not. the problem with the counter move of the first two seaters was the reduction of some 150 mph in speed, only 1 Mossie was downed with a two seater, but the B-2a when and if it would have surfaced would of given any RAF a/c including the Mossie nf's and bombers of the LSNF a run for it's moneis.

laughing yet ?

you see guys I've been doing this much longer than many of you have been alive. Big deal you say, yeah that's what I thought so too until I got access to official German and Allied records and found what I had in my research data base of over 5,000 pages of work was true.

The Mossie needed a single rearward firing weapon in my opinion and the Me 262A-1a had to be countered. since the RAF as you say it did not feel that their wooden machine could not be caught and the losses were acceptable, the RAF cried that the known Kommando Welter base at Burg should be oblitereated and that is exactly what happened in March of 45 and while many of the jets got creamed many also took off during the bomb run to fly to norhern German to fight another day off the autobahn.........had not this base been touched you would of easily seen the RAF mossie losses double or triple. There was a keen priority to keep this 10./NJG 11 alive and also if possible enlarged as some of the more well known aces of the nachtjagd were being transferred over to familiarize them with the handlings of the Schwalbe.

A couple of examples before I close my rant. All of you do more research before you come up and explode with materials you cannot defend. I've done it enough and will continue to do so............as I nor any of you have all the information.

Second two examples to counter Huckebeins theory of catching the Mossie by surprise only. A bf 109G-6/AS pilot flying from a mission during the eve landed and took off again for his base during the early morning. Attacked from behind and above by a Mossie fighter bomber with cannon and 4 forward mg's. The expereinced German pilot banked hard after several rounds hit his right wing and the Mossie overshot, Tried to bank up to the right and was caught in the tail and fuselage by the 109's forward 3cm prop weapon and shredded as the German pilot closed in behind. Scratch 1 Mossie.

Ace and friend heinz Rökker on his last mission of the war was attacked from behind by a Mossie nf as Heinz was flying near the airfield of St. Trond. Heinz had already downed 4 Lancasters this night. The Mossie overshot while Heinz did a ducking manuever and came up and behind the Mossie and shot it down with his four forward 2cm weapons. Scratch another Mossie.

so what am I getting at guys ? Research, research, research..........

cheers, and Lanc I would really appreciate it if you would close down the smart-ass comments and wait for my or someone elses replies before you try your best to counter............it ain't workin man

Erich ~

[Huckebein]

Ok mate, In can accept what you say there, except for the line 'they were all shot down'. You can't claim to know the outcome of every incident when a '262 intercepted a Mosquito, no matter how much research you've done. In some cases when the Mosquito escaped the '262 pilot won't even have known it was a Mosquito he was attacking and vice-versa.

[Erich]

ok almost done. Huckebein what delays when Mossies were about.... ? maybe this is in regard to landing ? My understanding is that this was so as it was frustrating for the pilots to drop into the landing mode when the Mossies scored over the airfields. Evenn so other couter measures were evolved like increase in Fla positions as the Mossies engine noise revealed. Even a/c armament was removed to makeshift devices to shoot back at the unknown. Also the German ac/ would order the landing lights to go blackout so it then depended on the pilots skill to land dead stick in the black.........

your quote about the German's never flew when Mossies were present ? what are you talking about, as I never said jack diddly about this. Of course they did the Germans full knowing that their were Mossie nf escorts with the Lancs and Halibags, also what is your purpose of stating take yourself away from the forum where (real life) discussion on WW 2 is preferred.

Do you have any clue what you just stated ? Go through this site and you can visually attest to the silliness of many postings on what-if's and the spam that goes on here. give me a break man. I've tried my best here to bring real life scenarios and interviews and my shared data base (gosh why do I do this ?) to you guys..........I'm now going to have to think this seriously through now whether to stay on or not.

suggest you go to the LEMB board or the Night fighter forum to find out if I am full of BS like you say I am. Maybe check my moderator statements at Marcus Wendals axis forums site or maybe my moderator postings on www.militariacollecting.com as well.

I wish you all well.............

v/r

der Alt ~

[Erich]

ah a response ! yes every Mossie attacked by Kommando Welter was shot down. Not one Moosie that was attacked got away. It is in the log-books that we have copies of straight from Germany as well as pilot interviews and we have been able to check the RAF losses in Pro and elsewhere to prove it. Both the nf versions and the LNsF bombers were shot down. the LNSF attacked or made their runs on Berlain in one of 6 routes and these were all known to the Luftwaffe crews..............yes more research is needed, as we are not quite finsihed yet with the 750 pages collected so far.

[Erich]

last call I hope on this. Let me make myself very clear on this. The Me 262A-1a's of the Kommando when flown at night could fire eiother two or four 3cm weapons. It was found that while intercepting a Mossie that few M rounds were needed as so explosive they were nearly every victory over a Mossie resulted in the Me 262 flying through debris. this of course pissed off Kurt Welter as he flet his pilots were not taking a more angled line to the rear of the RAF bomber and closing in too fast. The 3cm Mk 108 was a short range weapon and the closing jet to Mossie was so fast that the jet pilot had to reduce speed to accept the challenge of placing a few rounds to the Mosquito or he would overshoot. also since the me 262 did not have radar in the single seater versions a postivie ID had to be done before opening up fire. this was radioed to the ground station Döberitz close to Berlin as this station was always associated with 10./NJG 11. the station was powerful enough that it could track single Mossies if need be that had left Berlin after bombing as many times they got seperated from the Mossie mainstream back to England...........

something new eh ?

E ~

[Huckebein]

Well in the absence of actual hard evidence to the contrary I'll have to take your word on that, even though it does seem very unlikely. As for my quote regarding the Germans never flying, you said that 'the Germans still flew when Mossies were about', whereas I had merely stated that te Mosquitoes caused delays, and nothing about whether or not operations continued.

Oh, and I didn't mean any offense with that comment - I was frustrated, sorry.

[Erich]

friend, the only hard eveidence I can give you is what will be in my book. Even the new book by martin Bowman through Pen/Sword publications called Mosquitopanic will not cover all the missions on the end of the Luftwaffe. martin is obviously much more well known than I as a publisher but I wonder if he has soley concerned himslef with Mossie/luftwaffe missions for the past 35 years as I ? most probably not. i do know for a fact that he has totally left out the prime anti-Moskito stffel 10.(N)/Jg 300 oput of his book because he knows nothing about it and has not inteview the veterans as we have. there is probably room on this thread for me to add another 7 pages of full on text but I want everyone to enjoy our work. go to www.eagle-editions.com
from the site find the books lin. go here and find the text on the 2 volumes of JG 300. My English friend neil page translated them for the Crandall's. i mention these two books because it will be s super lead in towards our book on the Moskito-jagd whether they the Crandall's and everyone know it or not. also there are two other friend/authors on my little kwest of adventure.

Horrido !